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Machine Translation – Post Editing should we take on these jobs, for how much?
Thread poster: Philippe Locquet
Philippe Locquet
Philippe Locquet  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:53
English to French
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Fun yet unlikely Aug 29, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Michael Wetzel wrote:

My question is: Is neural MT getting worse? If it is learning from editors' input and that input is being provided by the worst editors that money can buy, wouldn't it be plausible to think that a lot of what it is being taught is nonsense?


There would be some kind of poetic justice in that...


That would be a fun ending.
Yet there's a lot at stake here and many translators are working on this in multiple languages. That happens in such a way that NMTs are learning how languages work and not only 1 language pair. In the long run, and if successful, that would help avoid mistakes. And as you can see in the above post it's not too bad already.

My bests


 
Philippe Locquet
Philippe Locquet  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:53
English to French
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Not exactly like this Aug 29, 2017

eyepod wrote:

Many translators are basically already doing this since their CAT tool has a default MT, possibly even Google translate.


For all the information I have at present, NMTs (and PBMTs) receive only the source text. Then your edited translation is not received by the MT. That's why in the past some have raised confidentiality issues about MTs since the source text is received. Yet the translation is never received. That's why they rely on translator's services to provided them with a proper translation, which otherwise wouldn't be needed.

As to Neural MTs specifically, the text is encoded when analysed. So depending on how the MT is built: PBMT+NMT or NMT alone etc... situations would differ. To have an idea of how the text is used, you would need to read the fine print in each and every case.

Hope this helps.

My bests


 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:53
German to English
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under these conditions Aug 29, 2017

A translation-related job is a translation-related-job is a translated-related job. From time to time I am sent something pre-translated (often enough by a bilingual client who hopes to save money this way) with a request that I edit it to make it my own and proper. The bottom line is how much time that takes, compared to translating it from scratch. If you charge per hour for editing / post editing, the well translated text will be cheaper to edit than to translate. This is what I look at ... See more
A translation-related job is a translation-related-job is a translated-related job. From time to time I am sent something pre-translated (often enough by a bilingual client who hopes to save money this way) with a request that I edit it to make it my own and proper. The bottom line is how much time that takes, compared to translating it from scratch. If you charge per hour for editing / post editing, the well translated text will be cheaper to edit than to translate. This is what I look at for anything sent to me. It would be the same for machine translation.
I advise clients when fixing a poor translation would be more expensive because of the time it takes, and they usually opt to have it re-translated. Also, fixing something that is badly made, often you simply can't make it as good as if it were well made in the first place. So it doesn't make sense for a client to pay more, for less quality.
If we treat machine translations like any other already translated material, and charge per hour at professional fees, I think the problem would solve itself. This would also sort out those texts that are worth approaching that way.
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Alex Farrell (X)
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:53
Member (2008)
Italian to English
So near, but yet so far Aug 30, 2017

DeepL isn't so hot. I wouldn't use it for anything serious. Here's an example

ITALIAN

Fornitura e posa in opera di porte dimensione 80/90x210, ad un battente avente resistenza al fuoco non inferiore a REI 60, complete di telaio, guarnizioni intumescenti antifumo, dotate di dispositivo di autochiusura. Complete di ogni onere per dare il lavoro finito a regola d'arte. (Essenza rovere naturale sul lato corridoio e laccata opaco colore ral da definire su lato interno, compr
... See more
DeepL isn't so hot. I wouldn't use it for anything serious. Here's an example

ITALIAN

Fornitura e posa in opera di porte dimensione 80/90x210, ad un battente avente resistenza al fuoco non inferiore a REI 60, complete di telaio, guarnizioni intumescenti antifumo, dotate di dispositivo di autochiusura. Complete di ogni onere per dare il lavoro finito a regola d'arte. (Essenza rovere naturale sul lato corridoio e laccata opaco colore ral da definire su lato interno, compreso serratura e maniglia tipo Olivari Planet Q), escluso scarico, tiro in quota e distribuzione ai piani contabilizzati a parte.

ENGLISH

Supply and installation of doors size 80/90x210, with a hinged door having fire resistance of not less than REI 60, complete with frame, intumescent smoke-free gaskets, equipped with self-closing device. Complete with every burden to give the finished work a workmanlike workmanship. (Natural oak absence on the corridor side and opaque ral colour lacquer to be defined on the inside side, including lock and handle type Olivari Planet Q), excluding discharge, pulling at height and distribution to the shelves counted separately.

*****

Anyone with any experience in my field would totally reject this English translation, which is full of serious mistakes and is unable to detect various instances of sloppy writing, badly-constructed sentences, etc., in the original. "Natural oak absence" is hilarious.

In the case of non-technical texts, it gives a straight literal translation that is more or less comprehensible but dead, flat, and stripped of the tone and nuance one finds in the original. Not suitable for translating (e.g.) academic papers.

[Edited at 2017-08-30 10:08 GMT]
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:53
Member (2004)
English to Italian
deleted... Aug 30, 2017

wrong thread!

[Edited at 2017-08-30 11:52 GMT]


 
Philippe Locquet
Philippe Locquet  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:53
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
From one language to the other Aug 30, 2017

Tom in London wrote:

DeepL isn't so hot. I wouldn't use it for anything serious. Here's an example

ITALIAN

Fornitura e posa in opera di porte dimensione 80/90x210, ad un battente avente resistenza al fuoco non inferiore a REI 60, complete di telaio, guarnizioni intumescenti antifumo, dotate di dispositivo di autochiusura. Complete di ogni onere per dare il lavoro finito a regola d'arte. (Essenza rovere naturale sul lato corridoio e laccata opaco colore ral da definire su lato interno, compreso serratura e maniglia tipo Olivari Planet Q), escluso scarico, tiro in quota e distribuzione ai piani contabilizzati a parte.

ENGLISH

Supply and installation of doors size 80/90x210, with a hinged door having fire resistance of not less than REI 60, complete with frame, intumescent smoke-free gaskets, equipped with self-closing device. Complete with every burden to give the finished work a workmanlike workmanship. (Natural oak absence on the corridor side and opaque ral colour lacquer to be defined on the inside side, including lock and handle type Olivari Planet Q), excluding discharge, pulling at height and distribution to the shelves counted separately.

*****

Anyone with any experience in my field would totally reject this English translation, which is full of serious mistakes and is unable to detect various instances of sloppy writing, badly-constructed sentences, etc., in the original. "Natural oak absence" is hilarious.

In the case of non-technical texts, it gives a straight literal translation that is more or less comprehensible but dead, flat, and stripped of the tone and nuance one finds in the original. Not suitable for translating (e.g.) academic papers.

[Edited at 2017-08-30 10:08 GMT]


Yes, we saw that before when comparing languages in one of the threads mentioned in my first post when considering GT when it released NMT services.
There is a lot of difference from one pair to the other yet and it depends on the direction (Source Vs Target) too.
Some of the best results with GT where En-Fr and De-Fr. DeepL looked good in En-Fr although I'm used to stay clear from Linguee's suggestion in that language pair because of the vast amount of litteral translation found there, even in EU texts, I agree. The improved results perceived now in En-Fr could be the result of MTPE as we discussed.
Bear in mind too that, the longer the segment sent to the MT the harder it will be for the MT to produce a proper translation.

My bests


 
Jeff Whittaker
Jeff Whittaker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:53
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
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One thing that isn't mentioned is that.... Aug 30, 2017

... GT will often omit entire phrases and sometimes sentences from a long paragraph if it doesn't "understand" something or if it cannot find a match. I recently tested it with a difficult long document and many, many words, phrases and sentences were just omitted.

This is dangerous to the unwary and for the recipient of quickly-done .04-a-word post-edited translations where it is simply not profitable to read all the source text and make sure nothing is left out.

[Edited at
... See more
... GT will often omit entire phrases and sometimes sentences from a long paragraph if it doesn't "understand" something or if it cannot find a match. I recently tested it with a difficult long document and many, many words, phrases and sentences were just omitted.

This is dangerous to the unwary and for the recipient of quickly-done .04-a-word post-edited translations where it is simply not profitable to read all the source text and make sure nothing is left out.

[Edited at 2017-08-30 21:02 GMT]
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Robert Rietvelt
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Spanish to Dutch
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Post Editing should we take on these jobs, for how much? Sep 2, 2017

My answer on this question is: 'Yes you should, but for the right price!'

As I stated on another forum, translation technology (in this case MT) is here to stay, so we should be carefull to not miss that boat.

Pricing is another story. As I understand it, the agency runs a text through a machine and we can save whatever is left to be safed. Although they tell us that it is a high quality (MT) translation, and editing it is easy (hence the 0.02 cents p/w, which is insane
... See more
My answer on this question is: 'Yes you should, but for the right price!'

As I stated on another forum, translation technology (in this case MT) is here to stay, so we should be carefull to not miss that boat.

Pricing is another story. As I understand it, the agency runs a text through a machine and we can save whatever is left to be safed. Although they tell us that it is a high quality (MT) translation, and editing it is easy (hence the 0.02 cents p/w, which is insane), the reality is different.

To make a long story short, for editing I charge my hourly price (just like I do for any proof job). If the job is really that easy as they say, I will be finished sooner, and the agency has to pay less hours. If the job takes me more time, well.... the ticker is running.

Seems only fair. Time is money.







[Edited at 2017-09-02 12:23 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-09-02 12:24 GMT]
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Olavo Nogueira
 
Anna Tzitayat
Anna Tzitayat  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 10:53
Russian to Spanish
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I see it like a possible new stage in translation industry Sep 3, 2017

I've performed post editing of a machine-translated article and have to admit that sometimes the translation from English into Russian was really good, I just had to correct minor things. To tell you the truth, I see it as a future step in the translation industry, even now many translation tools perform similar things and their usage is totally admitted. So, I don't want to be left aside, who knows where the technology progress will lead us in a few years.

 
Joshua Thomson
Joshua Thomson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:53
German to English
+ ...
Only for good quality MT Sep 4, 2017

As far as i'm concerned, i'll always take a look at the MT before i agree to a rate or take a job. I can MTPE for a good MT at around triple my translation wph. So i generally charge 1/2 to 1/3 of my normal rate per word. I just make sure it always works out to more than my normal pay per hour.

Most clients who have developed their own MT have TMs that are very specific to their field, so when it's good it's generally pretty easy to deal with.

Just my two pence.


Neil Ashby
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:53
Member (2008)
Italian to English
undercutting Sep 4, 2017

Joshua Thomson wrote:

As far as i'm concerned, i'll always take a look at the MT before i agree to a rate or take a job. I can MTPE for a good MT at around triple my translation wph. So i generally charge 1/2 to 1/3 of my normal rate per word. I just make sure it always works out to more than my normal pay per hour.

Most clients who have developed their own MT have TMs that are very specific to their field, so when it's good it's generally pretty easy to deal with.

Just my two pence.


That may be OK for proofeading but don't fall into the trap of assuming that a tool which may help you to revise more quickly means that you can reduce your rates for full translation.

[Edited at 2017-09-04 06:59 GMT]


 
Philippe Locquet
Philippe Locquet  Identity Verified
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English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
An aspect to consider Sep 4, 2017

Joshua Thomson wrote:

Most clients who have developed their own MT have TMs that are very specific to their field, so when it's good it's generally pretty easy to deal with.

Just my two pence.


Thanks for bringing that up!
That's one aspect that hasn't been considered.
There are indeed companies or vast agencies that could build (or are building) their own MTs and even NMTs (for those interested all the information to build one is in the description of the video I mentioned in my first post https://youtu.be/irYnSJX3Yxw ).
This would make a lot of sense especially for those that already have vast clean quality TMs. This means that they work with quality translators for real, are specialized and are dedicated to quality. Building a Neural MT on such grounds would help them in the long run to keep to the same style and increase their output. And they would still need to rely on the same team of quality translators.

So this would be a different approach altogether.
However as to pricing, I think it should go for the same as other MTPEs, as many colleagues have commented upon above.

My bests


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:53
English to Portuguese
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In memoriam
Drawing the line between MT and CAT Sep 4, 2017

Joshua Thomson wrote:

As far as i'm concerned, i'll always take a look at the MT before i agree to a rate or take a job. I can MTPE for a good MT at around triple my translation wph. So i generally charge 1/2 to 1/3 of my normal rate per word. I just make sure it always works out to more than my normal pay per hour.


Considering the resources the MT industry has invested so far, by now their product should be able to reliable handle a simple translation job that ANY fledgling translator could do properly.

Therefore, if you are a highly skilled translator, specialized in some complex area of human knowledge, it makes sense for you to drop your hefty rates to a mundane level when the job is such a piece of cake that MT can deliver it 80%+ done.

Joshua Thomson wrote (and I emphasized):
Most clients who have developed their own MT have TMs that are very specific to their field, so when it's good it's generally pretty easy to deal with.


The scope of a usual PEMT job post here on Proz is about a competent translator 'fixing' the raw output from a FREE online translation contrivance like Google Translate.

Google Translate operates by parsing the text to be translated with a database built with the inputs of countless people, including all shades and hues of both professional and amateur translators, as well as an immense flock of nondescript bilinguals and sesquilinguals, many of them self-claimed as such, without any kind of control. This is MT.

A field-specific MT developed by a stakeholder in that subject is closer to CAT - Computer Aided Translation. Its TM contains carefully researched and checked entries made by people who are supposedly knowledgeable in that matter.

This is much closer akin to CAT than to MT, so it's more like proofreading the implementation of high quality translation tidbits stored by experts and fed back by a CAT tool during translation. Visibly, it's not the same thing, so a line should be drawn between these two ways of doing it.


 
Philippe Locquet
Philippe Locquet  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:53
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
Stop by this thread before taking on MTPEs jobs Sep 7, 2017

Hello to all.

For future upcoming campain massive projects that keep popping up and will continue to do so:
It would be very good to top by this thread before giving our rates.
Some excellent suggestions have been given here.
So especially if you are new to MTPE, take the time to consider how much time needs to be spent on such jobs, professionnal ethics and what experienced translators are charging for this.
No, you don't necessarily have to do this on the c
... See more
Hello to all.

For future upcoming campain massive projects that keep popping up and will continue to do so:
It would be very good to top by this thread before giving our rates.
Some excellent suggestions have been given here.
So especially if you are new to MTPE, take the time to consider how much time needs to be spent on such jobs, professionnal ethics and what experienced translators are charging for this.
No, you don't necessarily have to do this on the cheap, even if volume is promised, or implied (you know what I mean... ) especially considering the amount of time that needs to be spent on these jobs.

Hope all the information that has been provided in this thread will help individual translators and the community as a whole.

My bests
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Machine Translation – Post Editing should we take on these jobs, for how much?







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