Do I have to translate an already translated Apostille? Thread poster: EstefaniaAlbert
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Hello.
I have to translate from English into Spanish an apostille already written in English, French and Spanish.
For example:
1. Country:
Pays/País:
This public document
Le présent acte public/El presente documento público
2. has been signed by
a été signé par
ha sido firmado por
etc.
(And, as footnote)
This Apostille only certifies the authenticity of the signature and the capacity of the person who has signed... See more Hello.
I have to translate from English into Spanish an apostille already written in English, French and Spanish.
For example:
1. Country:
Pays/País:
This public document
Le présent acte public/El presente documento público
2. has been signed by
a été signé par
ha sido firmado por
etc.
(And, as footnote)
This Apostille only certifies the authenticity of the signature and the capacity of the person who has signed the public document, and, where appropriate, the identity of the seal or stamp which the public document bears.
Cette Apostille atteste uniquement la véracité de la signature, la qualité en laquelle le signature de l'acte a agi et, le cas échéant, l'identité du sceau ou timbre dont cet acte public est revêtu.
Esta Apostilla certifica únicamente la autenticidad de la firma, la calidad en que el signatario del documento haya actuado y, en su caso, la identidad del sello o timbre del que el documento público esté revestido.
I've never seen an apostille like this one and I don't know how it should be translated. Should I leave the Spanish version and make a note saying that the form is written in English, French and Spanish?
Can somebody help me with this?
Thank you very much!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It depends on how stupid authorities can get | Sep 7, 2018 |
In Brazil, more specifically in São Paulo, there is a pool of 10 notarial offices - named CDT - that just LOVES to play stupid. Since 2007 (?) all UK passports have their field labels numbered, and they use 3 pages there to provide the translation of such labels into 30+ languages, to preclude translation. BR Portuguese is the 11th language there... to no avail at CDT! They demand a sworn translation!
Our Federal Police is much more reasonable regarding passports.
Brazilian A... See more In Brazil, more specifically in São Paulo, there is a pool of 10 notarial offices - named CDT - that just LOVES to play stupid. Since 2007 (?) all UK passports have their field labels numbered, and they use 3 pages there to provide the translation of such labels into 30+ languages, to preclude translation. BR Portuguese is the 11th language there... to no avail at CDT! They demand a sworn translation!
Our Federal Police is much more reasonable regarding passports.
Brazilian Apostilles are issued in three languages, PT/EN/FR. Nevertheless, the notarial offices that issue them can't translate the qualification of the person whose signature they certified into other languages. So I have to translate that (and any other PT-only info) when I do a sworn translation into English.
Time will gradually teach you what it makes sense to translate. By default, I'd suggest translating anything that is NOT available there in the target language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Daniel Frisano 
Italy
Local time: 19:47
Member (2008)
English to Italian
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| Personal experience | Sep 7, 2018 |
Although I normally translate into Italian, in the past I did a few documents EN>ES in which the original apostille was bilingual EN+ES. In those instances I just removed the EN part, and nobody ever complained.
Now, in ALL the apostilles I have ever seen, regardless of language, the title was in French, like this:
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APOSTILLE
(Convention de La Haye du 5 octobre 1961)
---
A couple of legal experts confirmed that it should always be in Fr... See more Although I normally translate into Italian, in the past I did a few documents EN>ES in which the original apostille was bilingual EN+ES. In those instances I just removed the EN part, and nobody ever complained.
Now, in ALL the apostilles I have ever seen, regardless of language, the title was in French, like this:
---
APOSTILLE
(Convention de La Haye du 5 octobre 1961)
---
A couple of legal experts confirmed that it should always be in French. I have always left it untranslated. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Language of the source document? | Sep 8, 2018 |
Estefanía Sosa Albert wrote:
Hello.
I have to translate from English into Spanish an apostille already written in English, French and Spanish.
For example:
1. Country:
Pays/País:
This public document
Le présent acte public/El presente documento público
2. has been signed by
a été signé par
ha sido firmado por
etc.
(And, as footnote)
This Apostille only certifies the authenticity of the signature and the capacity of the person who has signed the public document, and, where appropriate, the identity of the seal or stamp which the public document bears.
Cette Apostille atteste uniquement la véracité de la signature, la qualité en laquelle le signature de l'acte a agi et, le cas échéant, l'identité du sceau ou timbre dont cet acte public est revêtu.
Esta Apostilla certifica únicamente la autenticidad de la firma, la calidad en que el signatario del documento haya actuado y, en su caso, la identidad del sello o timbre del que el documento público esté revestido.
I've never seen an apostille like this one and I don't know how it should be translated. Should I leave the Spanish version and make a note saying that the form is written in English, French and Spanish?
Can somebody help me with this?
Thank you very much!!
1) You say you have to translate an apostille from English into Spanish and that it is already presented in Spanish.
Forgive me if I appear a little stupid, but how can you translate into Spanish something that is already in Spanish?
2) The state of origin for the apostille will be relevant here. Rules and regulations vary from one country to the next. In France, for example, an apostille certifies the authenticity of a document from a public/institutional source in terms of the signature and the authority of the signatory https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/apostille.php.
What to do? As it is already in three languages, I'd leave it as is and indicate that you have left this item untouched.
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Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:47
English to Russian
| Apostille only certifies the authenticity of the signature... | Sep 8, 2018 |
...not the authenticity of the document. It is relevant for all countries that signed the Convention. The level of officialism (ministry of..., secretary of state, notary public, certified by, acting as, and other pompous words) gives the document a spirit of authenticity, but actually apostille does what is written there: only certifies the authenticity of the signature, nothing else.
An apostille is worthy of re-translation, when original translation mismatch the officially... See more ...not the authenticity of the document. It is relevant for all countries that signed the Convention. The level of officialism (ministry of..., secretary of state, notary public, certified by, acting as, and other pompous words) gives the document a spirit of authenticity, but actually apostille does what is written there: only certifies the authenticity of the signature, nothing else.
An apostille is worthy of re-translation, when original translation mismatch the officially accepted single form. If apostille is already in target language, it does not mean that it is translated in proper words. Apostille is not a fiction literature but a governmental deed of certification. No synonyms or rephrasing allowed. That's why notaries require re-translation in many countries (to make it compliant with the form accepted in this country).
What regards the title, I know for sure that Russian (and some British) apostilles are in both languages, not only French.
Search for the official apostille form adopted for the country of origin (Argentina?) in Spanish. Compare its wordings with those in your trilingual document.
If they are similar (but not same), type it as if you translated it using exactly the same wording.
If they are already the same, just reproduce the apostille as if it was a part of your translation.
[Edited at 2018-09-08 13:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | | Legal conflict in Brazil | Sep 9, 2018 |
Teresa Borges wrote: Your should also read the Apostille Handbook issued by the Hague Conference on Private Law ( http://www.eeas.europa.eu/archives/delegations/vietnam/documents/eu_vietnam/eu_apostille_en.pdf) mainly where it says: 312 An Apostille may not be rejected on grounds alone that it has been drawn up in a language other than the language of the State of destination. The Convention provides that an Apostille may be drawn up in the official language of the Competent Authority that issues it (Art. 4(2)). The Convention also provides that the Apostille must produce its effects in all other Contracting States without any further formality, including translation (Art. 3(1)).
I'll leave it in Portuguese (as used in those days), a snippet from Decree 13609, of 1943, never amended, which implemented sworn translations as a mandatory requirement in Brazil for any document in a foreign language:
Art. 18. Nenhum livro, documento ou papel de qualquer natureza que fôr exarado em idioma estrangeiro, produzirá efeito em repartições da União dos Estados e dos municípios, em qualquer instância, Juízo ou Tribunal ou entidades mantidas, fiscalizadas ou orientadas pelos poderes públicos, sem ser acompanhado da respectiva tradução feita na conformidade dêste regulamento.
Parágrafo único. estas disposições compreendem também os serventuários de notas e os cartórios de registro de títulos e documentos que não poderão registrar, passar certidões ou públicas-formas de documento no todo ou em parte redigido em língua estrangeira.
The equivalent law in Spain has many similarities with the Brazilian one, however as it dates back from the 1600s, I guess it has been updated several times, so it should fit better contemporary practices.
As I said on my previous post, it will all depend on the level of stupidity found in local bureaucrats at the destination entity/country.
I take the risk, however I do expect that some day a more literate Brazilian bureaucrat will reject a sworn translation of mine under the allegation that I am only licensed in English, so I couldn't have translated "Convention de la Haye du 5 octobre 1961" from French. They'll demand a fellow sworn translator licensed in French to issue a sworn translation of that phrase alone, though the guidelines from our National Justice Council expressly state that this phrase must be in French.
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I still fail to see the point of the question as how can you translate from English into Spanish and apostille that is already in Spanish? What part of this am I not understanding?
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| An Apostille is often multilingual | Sep 9, 2018 |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
I still fail to see the point of the question as how can you translate from English into Spanish and apostille that is already in Spanish? What part of this am I not understanding?
As Brazil is a relatively recent (Aug. 2016) newcomer to the Hague Convention, all our Apostilles are in PT/EN/FR... but their issuers aren't. So it's pretty common to have the details entered on the Apostille in PT only. If any country is as strict as Brazil on these matters, they'll demand these to be translated.
| | | | EstefaniaAlbert
Argentina
Local time: 14:47
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you all | Sep 10, 2018 |
Thank you for all your answers.
The country of origin of the Apostille is EEUU and the country of destination is Argentina.
- Nikki Scott-Despaigne, just as it is explained by José Henrique Lamensdorf, the form is in three languages, but the filled out fields (Clark County Clerk, secretary of State, etc) are only in English.
- So, José Henrique Lamensdorf, you would leave the form just as it is and only translate the filled out fields. In this case, would you indicate that ... See more Thank you for all your answers.
The country of origin of the Apostille is EEUU and the country of destination is Argentina.
- Nikki Scott-Despaigne, just as it is explained by José Henrique Lamensdorf, the form is in three languages, but the filled out fields (Clark County Clerk, secretary of State, etc) are only in English.
- So, José Henrique Lamensdorf, you would leave the form just as it is and only translate the filled out fields. In this case, would you indicate that you didn’t modify the original form? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:47
English to Russian
Not origin. I meant destination in my post above. Target = destination of course.
In Russia, the same rules apply as in Brazil: officials (including notaries) may only use the official language, which is Russian only. How could they know whether it is apostille or not, unless translated? That's why any text in foreign language must be translated regardless of what Art. 3(1) reads.
[Edited at 2018-09-10 06:45 GMT]
| | | | | Ax I said, it's a matter of stupidity | Sep 10, 2018 |
Estefanía Sosa Albert wrote:
So, José Henrique Lamensdorf, you would leave the form just as it is and only translate the filled out fields. In this case, would you indicate that you didn’t modify the original form?
Some clerks at Brazilian notarial offices often take great pride in their stupidity. They cling to absurdly irrelevant details to exhibit their power to reject documents, translations, whatever, thanks to their blindly obdurate abidance to rules.
I've seen cases where they rejected the sworn translation of passports on stupid reasons. They usually require the sworn translation of passports to clearly identify the grantor on a PoA, things like that. So that usual text found on many passports worldwide asking authorities to let the bearer pass without too much inconvenience, help them in case of need etc. is useless for this purpose. Nevertheless the CDT I mentioned on an earlier post is known to reject sworn translations where this is merely indicated as "customary text"; they send it back with a note saying "please translate the customary text". American passports have the preamble of their Constitution ("We the people..."). They demand it be translated.
So I ask my usual clients about it. If it's for the CDT, I translate everything that is not in Portuguese already, to spare them from guaranteed trouble and delay. If it's for the Brazilian Federal Police, I know that they are smarter, I'll translate what I know they'll really need. If in doubt, I'll translate the entire Apostille, no big deal, but it will spare my clients from trouble. I assume their time is of the essence.
I wouldn't know how stupid Argentinean authorities would or could be. Life taught me to speak a unique, personal mix of most Spanish variants with impressive fluency, without ever having had a single formal class. They usually get so puzzled with a Brazilian speaking such uncanny version of their language instead of the trite portuñol, that they were never stupid with me in the 3 or 4 times I was there. Your guess should be better than mine.
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Paweł Hamerski (X)
Local time: 19:47
English to Polish
+ ...
| Jose is right, however it depends upon the client or rather the official/office where it should be | Sep 10, 2018 |
submitted. So the simplest? or the most difficult way is to ask the client what is needed. Then the client is furious because you force him/her to ask the official something he does not understand, etc. and the official is furious because he does not like to hear stupid questions, etc.
My solution would be....
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 11:47
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Translate all of it | Sep 10, 2018 |
Estefanía Sosa Albert wrote:
Hello.
I have to translate from English into Spanish an apostille already written in English, French and Spanish....
I've never seen an apostille like this one and I don't know how it should be translated. Should I leave the Spanish version and make a note saying that the form is written in English, French and Spanish?
Can somebody help me with this?
Thank you very much!!
I agree with Daniel, translate (i.e., copy) the entire postille as is and add, for example, [translation provided in the original] or something like that.
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