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How Legal Are Electronic Agreements/Contracts Used By Some Outsourcers?
Thread poster: Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng  Identity Verified
Cameroon
Local time: 19:31
English to French
+ ...
Oct 7, 2020

Hello,

These 3 to 5 last years, I have noticed that more and more outsourcers use electronic agreements which are only signed by freelancers. They show you an electronic form to sign with your name. But they have proof that the freelancer signed the contract while there is no evidence that the outsourcer also signed it. Moreover, outsourcers control the software used for such contracts and usually modify it many times in a few months when they feel they might be taken to court. Norm
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Hello,

These 3 to 5 last years, I have noticed that more and more outsourcers use electronic agreements which are only signed by freelancers. They show you an electronic form to sign with your name. But they have proof that the freelancer signed the contract while there is no evidence that the outsourcer also signed it. Moreover, outsourcers control the software used for such contracts and usually modify it many times in a few months when they feel they might be taken to court. Normally, contracts should be signed by both parties and each party should keep a copy. How legal is such a practice which is imposed by outsourcers? I am particularly interested in countries like USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg. Even if it's legal, should it be imposed on freelancers residing in countries where the administration does not recognise such contracts, especially as the freelancer does not have any evidence of the nature of their relationship with the outsourcer?

I have another question relating to abusive NDAs. Some outsourcers pretend that all their information and files handled by freelancers are confidential while most files are found in public places. At times, they require the business relationship with the freelancer to be kept secret (while they show who their clients are on their websites for advertisement purposes). How legal is that in USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg?

Thanks for your help.
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Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:31
English to Arabic
+ ...
Don't bother about electronic or no electronic! Oct 7, 2020

All these contracts and documents out there are one-sided.

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-is-an-unconscionable-contract.html


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 23:31
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Jefhtra I, your question about electronic contracts Oct 7, 2020

JEFHTRA wrote:
[More and more outsourcers use electronic agreements which are signed by the freelancer only, and not the outsourcer. The outsourcer can prove that the freelancer signed the contract, but the freelancer can't prove that the outsourcer signed it. Such] outsourcers control the software used for [signing] such contracts and usually modify it many times in a few months when they feel they might be taken to court.


From your description I assume you're talking about large platforms where there isn't a personal relationship between the translator and the outsourcer, and in which the translator is treated almost like a customer or user of the platform instead of a service provider or a party that sells something to the outsourcer. In other words, I assume you're not talking about translation agencies that use e.g. HelloSign to facilitate the signing of contracts. These gig work platforms often have a clause in their contracts stating that if you continue to work for them after they've changed the contract, then you are assumed to have accepted it.

I'm not sure how legal this is in the European Union (and for the foreseeable future also the UK). Especially now that two successive data safe harbour agreements between the EU and the USA have been shown to be deficient and thus invalid.

But if you are considered a business in your own country (instead of a consumer), then you should avoid signing any agreements that you are not willing to abide by. If you are concerned about them changing the agreement, you would do well to regularly download a copy of the agreement (along with the date) so that you can prove to a court which agreement applied at the time of your working for them.

Normally, contracts should be signed by both parties and each party should keep a copy.


It is perfectly possible to write a contract in such a way that it is basically a list of promises that is promised by a single party. A contract need only be signed by two parties if the contract contains promises made by both parties. Many of the agreements signed on the internet are such contracts.

[Edited at 2020-10-07 09:42 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 23:31
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Jefhtra II, your question about file confidentiality Oct 7, 2020

JEFHTRA wrote:
I have a question relating to abusive NDAs. Some outsourcers pretend that all their information and files handled by freelancers are confidential while most files are found in public places. At times, they require the business relationship with the freelancer to be kept secret (while they show who their clients are on their websites for advertisement purposes).


I can't comment on the legality of this, but I can tell you that when I studied to become a translator, we were taught at college by our lecturers that yes, indeed, the translator's relationship with the client is confidential (unless agreed otherwise) and all of the files and other information shared between the translator and the client are also confidential. Even the language combination... even the fact that the translator is doing translations for the client... even the date of the job -- all these things are confidential, unless there is a very good (almost coercive) reason why it shouldn't be.

I have, at times, felt feel that the same applies to clients. In other words, why should the client not also treat the translator's identity and his relationship with the client as confidential? But I'm glad that that isn't so, because otherwise translators would have a very hard time getting new clients.

I have learnt, from discussions here and elsewhere, that not all translators feel a moral obligation to extend client confidentiality to things that do not relate to the content of the files. Some translators believe it is perfectly acceptable to tell anyone that they've done a job for such and such a client, on such and such a date, in such and such language combination, for such and such purpose, as long as the content of the files are not revealed.

If a file that the client had indicated as confidential is available publicly, then I believe you are not required to keep it a secret (in fact, most NDAs have such a clause, i.e. that if the file is available publicly, then it is no longer covered by the NDA), but you are still required to keep a secret the fact that the client considers/considered it to be a confidential file.

Also, a file may be available publicly for a while, and then no longer, and how will you be able to prove (to a judge) that the file used to be publicly available? Just be aware of that. Also, don't forget: files can be made public illegally. The fact that something is no longer secret doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't (or wasn't) meant to be private.

[Edited at 2020-10-07 09:42 GMT]


 
Hedia Mannai
Hedia Mannai  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:31
English to French
+ ...
How Legal Are Electronic Agreements/Contracts Used By Some Outsourcers? Oct 7, 2020

Technology outsourcing arrangements are becoming more and more widespread. Commercially, they can allow businesses to save money while at the same time improving the quality of IT services.
But these arrangements also raise a number of legal issues for both vendors and customers. Depending on the specifics of the outsourcing, the contracts may involve agreements for consulting, software development, licensing, implementation, and maintenance, among others. The following are some of the iss
... See more
Technology outsourcing arrangements are becoming more and more widespread. Commercially, they can allow businesses to save money while at the same time improving the quality of IT services.
But these arrangements also raise a number of legal issues for both vendors and customers. Depending on the specifics of the outsourcing, the contracts may involve agreements for consulting, software development, licensing, implementation, and maintenance, among others. The following are some of the issues that may be of concern when negotiating technology outsourcing agreements.
When the outsourcing involves a licensing component, attention must be paid to precisely what is being licensed and the rights and obligations of the licensor and licensee. For example, regarding a software license, the customer should consider whether the terms of the license are sufficient to allow him actually to use the licensed software for the intended purpose.
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Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng  Identity Verified
Cameroon
Local time: 19:31
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I don't agree Oct 7, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:
From your description I assume you're talking about large platforms where there isn't a personal relationship between the translator and the outsourcer, and in which the translator is treated almost like a customer or user of the platform instead of a service provider or a party that sells something to the outsourcer. In other words, I assume you're not talking about translation agencies that use e.g. HelloSign to facilitate the signing of contracts. These gig work platforms often have a clause in their contracts stating that if you continue to work for them after they've changed the contract, then you are assumed to have accepted it.


All these companies are translation agencies. Only one of them is a platform operating like a translation agency. The platform's Service Agreement is a form that freelancers have to sign by clicking a button after filling in their names. There are promises on both parties. For example, you translate files for them and they pay you using an agreed payment method. It's not something like HelloSign or using a Yahoo.com account. Most of these companies (multinational companies) signed paper contracts with me before and we collaborated for years. Unfortunately, they used my information and abused my trust to spy on me (I have evidences of what I am talking about). When they discovered that I was looking for other jobs (better-paid in-house positions), they started blackmailing me with these measures as I was depending on them for my income. They know everything about my identity and my life, and are planning measures targeting me in order to harm me. If they go ahead with these new measures, I will name them here and elsewhere and we will go to court according to their threats.

I can't comment on the legality of this, but I can tell you that when I studied to become a translator, we were taught at college by our lecturers that yes, indeed, the translator's relationship with the client is confidential (unless agreed otherwise) and all of the files and other information shared between the translator and the client are also confidential. Even the language combination... even the fact that the translator is doing translations for the client... even the date of the job -- all these things are confidential, unless there is a very good (almost coercive) reason why it shouldn't be.

I have, at times, felt feel that the same applies to clients. In other words, why should the client not also treat the translator's identity and his relationship with the client as confidential? But I'm glad that that isn't so, because otherwise translators would have a very hard time getting new clients.

I have learnt, from discussions here and elsewhere, that not all translators feel a moral obligation to extend client confidentiality to things that do not relate to the content of the files. Some translators believe it is perfectly acceptable to tell anyone that they've done a job for such and such a client, on such and such a date, in such and such language combination, for such and such purpose, as long as the content of the files are not revealed.

If a file that the client had indicated as confidential is available publicly, then I believe you are not required to keep it a secret (in fact, most NDAs have such a clause, i.e. that if the file is available publicly, then it is no longer covered by the NDA), but you are still required to keep a secret the fact that the client considers/considered it to be a confidential file.

Also, a file may be available publicly for a while, and then no longer, and how will you be able to prove (to a judge) that the file used to be publicly available? Just be aware of that. Also, don't forget: files can be made public illegally. The fact that something is no longer secret doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't (or wasn't) meant to be private.


This is not true. I have read the Code de commerce of France and other laws. Outsourcers should not prevent freelancers from advertising their services and growing (secrecy of the business relationship). Moreover, the information handled by a freelancer during a long collaboration with a given outsourcer cannot always be confidential; that's why they are required to specify which information/file is confidential. Information found in public places cannot be deemed confidential. As concerns evidences proving that a file has been found in public places, I know that I am fighting against people who want to destroy me and always keep evidences against them aside.


 
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng  Identity Verified
Cameroon
Local time: 19:31
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Please be specific with relevant legal provisions of the named countries Oct 7, 2020

I would like to thanks all those who tried to answer my questions. But to gain time, please give relevant legal provisions clearly related to my questions in USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg. General statements are not very useful.

Thanks for your understanding.


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:31
English to Arabic
+ ...
Carefully read the link I provided! Oct 7, 2020

Relevant legal provisions clearly related to your problem in USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg can be acquired through your hired lawyer from said countries, after them having checked your detailed statements, specific documents and circumstances of the situation.

Generally speaking, a fat multinational company that is trying to make your life miserable (you said you had evidences!) translates into "unequal Bargaining Power", "Undue Influence" & "Duress", and also - consequently - tra
... See more
Relevant legal provisions clearly related to your problem in USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg can be acquired through your hired lawyer from said countries, after them having checked your detailed statements, specific documents and circumstances of the situation.

Generally speaking, a fat multinational company that is trying to make your life miserable (you said you had evidences!) translates into "unequal Bargaining Power", "Undue Influence" & "Duress", and also - consequently - translates into a very "unhappy" court that has the legal power to tear them a new one.

If a cat scratches you, you will be told to walk it off; however, if a bear puts you into ICU, that bear will be ordered killed by power of the law. Get the gist?

And, in the rare case where law is bribable, there is always media!
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Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Specifics needed Oct 8, 2020

JEFHTRA wrote:
I am fighting against people who want to destroy me

It's still relatively unusual for a translation agency to put a hit out on a translator. How exactly have you upset them?

USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg

In four countries, too. Have you considered it might be you, not them?


Please give relevant legal provisions clearly related to my questions

You're asking the impossible without being specific about what the problem is. In the UK at least, anything contractual would come down to case law anyway.


Mervyn Henderson (X)
Fatine Echenique
expressisverbis
 
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng  Identity Verified
Cameroon
Local time: 19:31
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Partial Details of The Case Oct 8, 2020

There are none so blind as those who will not see. Unfortunately, there are judges and prosecutors who reason like you. Other answers show that their authors have understood the problem. I have already filed a complaint against some of these companies and whatever evidence I show, you will not change your mind. I've been through it before.

For example, in the same case, a bank has voluntarily changed my address to prevent me from receiving my debit card in order to prevent me from
... See more
There are none so blind as those who will not see. Unfortunately, there are judges and prosecutors who reason like you. Other answers show that their authors have understood the problem. I have already filed a complaint against some of these companies and whatever evidence I show, you will not change your mind. I've been through it before.

For example, in the same case, a bank has voluntarily changed my address to prevent me from receiving my debit card in order to prevent me from receiving payments from one of these companies. The defendant did not deny the facts. But do you know the prosecutor's decision? She concluded that it was not forgery, but a typing error! What proved that it was a typing error? Nothing. She claimed that it was the street name that was changed and that the postcode was correct. This is a clear disguise of the offence which should not mislead a competent magistrate. Apart from the fact that my address was deliberately changed, even though the bank had notarised proof of this address and had me check it before validating it on its computer, the Post Office document attached to the complaint proves that it was forgery. According to this document, the Post Office agent came to my home for the first time and did not find me (which means the address was correct). But, the second time, the agent claimed that the address was incorrect and requested that the debit card be returned to the sender (my bank branch which is located hundreds of kilometres from my current address). IF AN ADDRESS IS INCORRECT, IT WILL REMAIN SO, REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF DELIVERY ATTEMPTS. In fact, they didn't want to deliver this debit card to harm me. When I noticed that there was a delay in the delivery of the debit card, I complained to my landlord (their accomplice against whom I also filed a complaint). That's why they falsified the address to justify the non-delivery of the debit card.

So it's a case that involves accomplices all over the world. It's a network that looks like a sect. Have they recruited me into a sect without my knowledge and don't want to let me go? I don't know. They have blocked my life since 2015, prevented me from going to study at Concordia University (French Studies Department) in Montreal, Canada, in 2016, disrupted my application to work at the UN in 2017 (French translators competitive examination), and totally ruined me; since I am financially dependent on them. They used their vast global network to prevent me from finding another decent job. When I try to take legal action, even the company that works with me drastically reduces my very modest income to the point where I sometimes ask my family for help. I live a real nightmare.

In 2017, I took my case to the CIDPJ (www.cdpdj.qc.ca), in Quebec, to associations fighting racism in France, to the Brazilian justice system, and filed a complaint in France in 2019. I referred the matter to the Ombuds Office of Concordia University in 2019 (according to CIDPJ's advice). All this has had no result so far.

This is only a small detail of this huge case. They are planning to take another step to hurt me. Once they confirm it, I will release the names of those companies here and elsewhere.

Chris S wrote:

JEFHTRA wrote:
I am fighting against people who want to destroy me

It's still relatively unusual for a translation agency to put a hit out on a translator. How exactly have you upset them?

USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg

In four countries, too. Have you considered it might be you, not them?


Please give relevant legal provisions clearly related to my questions

You're asking the impossible without being specific about what the problem is. In the UK at least, anything contractual would come down to case law anyway.
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Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:31
English to Arabic
+ ...
:( Oct 8, 2020

In this case, something must be very special about you.

I'm guessing they must be the real-life version of the "Mother" team from Mile 22.

But, what you need to know is that even those "resourceful" guys get their asses handed to them in the end.

You just need to outlast them!


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Yes, what a nightmare! Oct 8, 2020

JEFHTRA wrote:
So it's a case that involves accomplices all over the world. It's a network that looks like a sect. Have they recruited me into a sect without my knowledge and don't want to let me go? I don't know. They have blocked my life since 2015, prevented me from going to study at Concordia University (French Studies Department) in Montreal, Canada, in 2016, disrupted my application to work at the UN in 2017 (French translators competitive examination), and totally ruined me; since I am financially dependent on them. They used their vast global network to prevent me from finding another decent job. When I try to take legal action, even the company that works with me drastically reduces my very modest income to the point where I sometimes ask my family for help. I live a real nightmare.


It's like you went to bed one night and woke up trapped in a Robert Ludlum novel.

Given the global reach of this conspiracy, I don't think I can (or, let's face it, dare) be of much service to you, except perhaps to suggest that you should stop posting about this. You never know who's listening...


Kevin Fulton
expressisverbis
 
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng  Identity Verified
Cameroon
Local time: 19:31
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good Starting Point Oct 9, 2020

Thanks for your link. It's actually the best reply so far. I can deepen my research based on these terms in the cases of USA and UK. The research is easier for me in France and Luxembourg as they are French-speaking countries.

Sadek_A wrote:

Relevant legal provisions clearly related to your problem in USA, UK, France, and Luxembourg can be acquired through your hired lawyer from said countries, after them having checked your detailed statements, specific documents and circumstances of the situation.

Generally speaking, a fat multinational company that is trying to make your life miserable (you said you had evidences!) translates into "unequal Bargaining Power", "Undue Influence" & "Duress", and also - consequently - translates into a very "unhappy" court that has the legal power to tear them a new one.

If a cat scratches you, you will be told to walk it off; however, if a bear puts you into ICU, that bear will be ordered killed by power of the law. Get the gist?

And, in the rare case where law is bribable, there is always media!


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:31
English to Arabic
+ ...
You're welcome! Oct 9, 2020

Glad it helped!

And, remember, if they're doing all of this then they must be just as scared of you!


 
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng
Jean Fulbert Hervé Eboumeyeng  Identity Verified
Cameroon
Local time: 19:31
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I'm writing for people of good will Oct 9, 2020

Given the global reach of this conspiracy, I don't think I can (or, let's face it, dare) be of much service to you, except perhaps to suggest that you should stop posting about this. You never know who's listening...


Don't worry. Those interested have already read my posts. They have already sent signals showing that they have read them. I write for people of good will who still have a sense of morality and who oppose injustice. All natural or legal persons, who are likely to redress or denounce these wrongs, have protected or collaborated with these unscrupulous people.

For your information, the organiser of all this conspiracy is a French subsidiary of a British multinational (the company is in France but the contract is governed by English law). It is a partner of Proz.com and you have its advertisements all over here. This is certainly why there are very few contributions for such an important topic. All the other actors are just her accomplices. The second major actor is the branch of my Brazilian bank located in Porto Alegre (State of Rio Grande do Sul). But I have left this state and they are now persecuting me in my new city of residence (where I have taken my case to the state and federal courts). If the French justice system takes this case seriously, this company, which also abuses French citizens (check Glassdoor and other reviews on the Internet), will be put out of business along with all its accomplices.

I invite all the accomplices who have nothing to gain from this case to stay out of it. I have no problem with them. They have their reputation to preserve. They should let the French company and its British parent company get wrapped up in the mud. If this is a sect, they've been cheated. I have never consciously joined it. If it persists and if justice does nothing, I will bring this matter to the public's attention with all the evidence in my possession, including that produced by the courts and the parties. I would have nothing more to lose. I owe them nothing. I have my honest and legitimate ambitions which I try to achieve, without cheating, through effort and hard work.

Finally, I call on younger translators to be very careful about giving their personal information (ID cards, passports, etc.) to outsourcers, no matter their impressive name or brand. Make sure you give them only the information strictly needed to collaborate with them and for them to pay you. If they insist about a specific personal document, they should provide you with verifiable legal provisions or laws authorising or imposing such a practice. They pretend they don't know who you are. You too don't know who they are and their hidden intentions. Also take very seriously negative reviews made on outsourcers to avoid getting into trouble.

Chris S wrote:

JEFHTRA wrote:
So it's a case that involves accomplices all over the world. It's a network that looks like a sect. Have they recruited me into a sect without my knowledge and don't want to let me go? I don't know. They have blocked my life since 2015, prevented me from going to study at Concordia University (French Studies Department) in Montreal, Canada, in 2016, disrupted my application to work at the UN in 2017 (French translators competitive examination), and totally ruined me; since I am financially dependent on them. They used their vast global network to prevent me from finding another decent job. When I try to take legal action, even the company that works with me drastically reduces my very modest income to the point where I sometimes ask my family for help. I live a real nightmare.


It's like you went to bed one night and woke up trapped in a Robert Ludlum novel.

Given the global reach of this conspiracy, I don't think I can (or, let's face it, dare) be of much service to you, except perhaps to suggest that you should stop posting about this. You never know who's listening...


 
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How Legal Are Electronic Agreements/Contracts Used By Some Outsourcers?







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