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Adjectival agreement - Transgender texts
Thread poster: SamuelDJones (X)
Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno
Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno  Identity Verified
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Indeed Apr 11, 2016

You can avoid harto/a. Otherwise, harto.

 
Jennifer Levey
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More on tolerance, and how it is reflected in the language we use Apr 11, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
… if society has labelled him with certain gender tags like name, relation (father, mother, son, etc.), etc. it would be considerably difficult to live down these tags. It would also pose a legal and grammatical issue.


I began my last post with the phrase “In tolerant western countries ...”. Specious argument of the kind “we can’t explain that phenomenon without breaking the rules of grammar” is the language of the intolerant.

Ty Kendall wrote:
[SJWs] would throw words like "genderqueer", "gender fluid", "gender non-conforming", and "non-binary" at you.


The terms you mention as possible ‘alternatives’ to the language adopted by the tolerant are, precisely, those of the intolerant (and the plain ignorant). That said, those are all nouns or adjectives and any fast-developing field of human endeavour inevitably generates new nouns, and adjectives or verbs derived from them. However, the perceived need for new nouns (and derivatives) is not the topic of this thread. The topic is whether those adjectives should be rendered as masculine or feminine in languages where adjectives are not ‘gender-agnostic’ (as they are in English).

It’s been a very long time since anything happened in human history that has required us to add new pronouns, or make radical adjustments in the way we use adjectival endings in French or Spanish. We’ve been happily jogging along for many centuries with just “he” and “she” (plus “it” for non-human things, such as bedsprings and goldfish). The constraints of English grammar certainly didn’t stop Shakespeare from questioning classic gender roles in Much Ado About Nothing. Likewise, recent anti-discrimination legislation, press guidelines and a multitude of academic texts have quite successfully handled the rights, obligations, psychological, social and medical conditions of transgender folk and transsexuals for several decades without generating one single new pronoun. If they had invented a new one, it would surely be in the Oxford dictionary by now, wouldn’t it?

Tomás cani Binder wrote:
… if your goal is to get rid of the issue: reword with a different grammar, …


For a translator, the aim should surely never be to simply “get rid of the issue”. Circumlocutions of the kind you mention are at best a “cop-out” for use by writers (or translators) who don’t (want to) know how to correctly address, or refer to, transgender people in the third person.

However, Samuel’s question refers specifically to a text in which a transgender man is talking about himself, in the first person. It is surely fair to assume that anyone who has gone (or, is going) through the gender transition process will very deliberately chose the words that best reinforce their own perception of ‘self’.

In the specific phrase quoted by Samuel “Estoy hart@”, the subject of his article (a transgender man) would without doubt say “harto”, simply because he identifies with the world and consciousness of masculinity. Use of the masculine reaffirms and reinforces the identity he wishes to give to himself and impress upon others.

This auto-identification of “self” goes further than the deliberate selection of appropriate adjectival endings; there may be a whole-hearted word-switch. For example, a MTF person will perhaps say “I am pretty” (“Soy bonita”), whereas in equivalent circumstances an FTM person would more likely say “I am handsome” (“Soy hermoso”).


 
SamuelDJones (X)
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Adapt the text Apr 12, 2016

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

Just to cover the example you give, it would be as simple as removing gender information from the sentence. You can easily rephrase "Estoy harto..." with "Me he hartado..." or "No soporto más que...".

To me, the most sensible way to approach this is the same approach as any other gender-related text if your goal is to get rid of the issue: reword with a different grammar, which is possible in a high number of cases.



That's very true, Tomás. At times, there will doubtless be a way to adapt a sentence such as this. But as you say, this does lead to us dodging the issue itself.


 
Adrian MM. (X)
Adrian MM. (X)
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Time for a gender re-assignment like 'hartoa' Apr 12, 2016

Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:

You can avoid harto/a. Otherwise, harto.


Oz allows a third or 'indeterminate' gender on passports.

See, for a Spanish-speaking case in point: the 'guevedoces' (a.k.a. guevadoces):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

Perhaps it is time for a Real Academia adjectival re-invention such as hartoa(s) or hartao(s) - or even a 'heart-felt' androgynous term like harti.

[Edited at 2016-04-13 11:44 GMT]


 
Ty Kendall
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Can't think of an appropriate title... Apr 12, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:
Likewise, recent anti-discrimination legislation, press guidelines and a multitude of academic texts have quite successfully handled the rights, obligations, psychological, social and medical conditions of transgender folk and transsexuals for several decades without generating one single new pronoun. If they had invented a new one, it would surely be in the Oxford dictionary by now, wouldn’t it?


They have invented them (Spivak pronouns, Ze/Zir, Xe/Xyr etc.)
Don't think they've made it to the OED yet though and they certainly aren't used colloquially outside of very select groups, but the gender neutral honorific Mx made it:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gender-neutral-honorific-mx-to-be-included-in-the-oxford-english-dictionary-alongside-mr-ms-and-mrs-10222287.html

Like I said, I actually agree with you, I think we can get along find with what we have, but there will be others who see things differently, and (with the help of social media) this statistically insignificant minority can be rather vocal.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Slightly off-topic: Is language the correct battleground for all causes? Apr 12, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:
Tomás cani Binder wrote:
… if your goal is to get rid of the issue: reword with a different grammar, …

For a translator, the aim should surely never be to simply “get rid of the issue”. Circumlocutions of the kind you mention are at best a “cop-out” for use by writers (or translators) who don’t (want to) know how to correctly address, or refer to, transgender people in the third person.

Honestly, it is not that I am not interested in the matter -- I am, in fact --. It is simply that I am not yet convinced that language should be chosen as the battleground for all different causes, no matter how important and just they are.

If we resort to altering the language all the time, not only we will make it all nice and fluffy and tasteless, but also more prone to new claims of injury by new interest groups that find new sets of defects and shortcomings in language. In an extreme situation, we would have to either A) utter long, digital sequences of rather meaningless words that do not offend anyone, or B) remain silent and enjoy compact, meaningful, analogue language inside our heads or in the privacy of our homes. In both cases, language and communication will suffer.

To me, what we should strive to correct and elliminate are the undesirable or downright abusive realities and practices words refer to. We should not allow lobbies and lawmakers enforce alterations of language while at the same time they allow TV shows promoting stereotypes and practices we could really do without.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
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I doubt if there are any... Apr 13, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
… if society has labelled him with certain gender tags like name, relation (father, mother, son, etc.), etc. it would be considerably difficult to live down these tags. It would also pose a legal and grammatical issue.


I began my last post with the phrase “In tolerant western countries ...”.


You only have to see what is happening in Europe on the immigration issue, or the electioneering going on in the other half of Western civilization, the US.


 
Christopher Schröder
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My tuppence worth Apr 13, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

Suppose I meant unchartered?


But you didn't.

OP: You just have to do what the person in question would do (in this case the masculine ending)


 
Jennifer Forbes
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In memoriam
The transgender grammar problem in English. Apr 13, 2016

The problem of masculine or feminine adjectives does not arise in English because nouns do not have gender.
However, it does arise in the case of possessive adjectives and possessive pronouns.
In the case of a woman who wishes to be treated as a man (or a man who wishes to be treated as a woman), for instance, should one say "his parents" or "her parents"? Should one say "this book is his" or "this book is hers"?
As others here have said, ideally the word to use should be the w
... See more
The problem of masculine or feminine adjectives does not arise in English because nouns do not have gender.
However, it does arise in the case of possessive adjectives and possessive pronouns.
In the case of a woman who wishes to be treated as a man (or a man who wishes to be treated as a woman), for instance, should one say "his parents" or "her parents"? Should one say "this book is his" or "this book is hers"?
As others here have said, ideally the word to use should be the word preferred by the person concerned. However, it is rare for a translator to be able to discuss the matter with the person concerned.
Collapse


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:12
French to English
third sex Apr 13, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:

There’s no need for extra suppleness in the language, less still a need to invent a “third sex”.


Then why are trans people pushing to be able to tick a third box after the usual M and F on forms for passports etc.?
There are languages which have adopted gender-neutral pronouns so that children can be referred to without underlining their gender and simply live out their dreams (Scandinavian mostly, that I've heard of at least)

Anyway, to answer the original question: I recently attended a conference about the need for inclusive language in a context of volunteers working to foster parental empowerment (99.999% mothers) and the speaker said that if in doubt we simply need to ask upfront what the person's preferences were. They know very well that it's confusing for those who have never encountered such issues. Trans people mostly have been through pretty confusing stages themselves, and it seems more letters are being added every day to the LGBT+ list which probably reflects a certain amount of confusion within the community.

So here we have a translation to produce. If we need to use gender-specific termino in the translation when the original doesn't need to, we obviously have a dilemma, in that we can't ask the fictional character. But we can ask real-life people in similar situations and in this day and age they shouldn't be too hard to find.

And yes, the tendency is to go with how the person identifies regardless of appearance and plumbing.


AmberBKearse
 
Adrian MM. (X)
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The yacht - she sails well Apr 13, 2016

Jenny Forbes wrote:

The problem of masculine or feminine adjectives does not arise in English because nouns do not have gender.



Not quite. There are exceptions, like male and female electrical connectors and naval vessels that used to be labelled she and her by a centuries-old tradition in the British Royal Navy - and still is in the Merchant Navy - but is now to be officially referred to as it and its.

As the 1950s English rock singer: Tommy Steele once recounted anecdotally from his stint in the British Merchant Navy when an old sailor asked him: 'why do we call a ship she and her?'. Came the reply: 'I haven't got a clue'. Answer: '.. because, Tommy, we rely on her, like a woman'.


[Edited at 2016-04-13 19:10 GMT]


 
Jennifer Levey
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Perverse Apr 13, 2016

Adrian MM. wrote:
Perhaps it is time for a Real Academia adjectival re-invention such as hartoa(s) or hartao(s) - or even a 'heart-felt' androgynous term like harti.


That would be a very perverse move, and utterly counter-productive.

No self-respecting transgender person would use it when referring to him or herself.

Those most likely to use "harti" (or anything similar) would be intolerant folk keen to display their disapproval or blind hatred of those people by unnecessarily emphasising their gender history, much the same way as some men use "it" when referring to their mother-in-law.

It would simply add to the panoply of derotgatory and discriminatory terms used against these people, along with some of the nouns/adjectives mentioned by Ty.


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
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Hebrew to English
No title Apr 13, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:
No self-respecting transgender person would use it when referring to him or herself.


Or xyrself.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
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And don't forget the proper nouns Apr 14, 2016

Adrian MM. wrote:

Jenny Forbes wrote:

The problem of masculine or feminine adjectives does not arise in English because nouns do not have gender.



Not quite. There are exceptions, like male and female electrical connectors and naval vessels that used to be labelled she and her by a centuries-old tradition in the British Royal Navy - and still is in the Merchant Navy - but is now to be officially referred to as it and its.



And all proper nouns referring to people are gender-specific, including that of transgenders, who, as pointed out by Robin, have at any time only one gender, even if not clear to everyone what that gender is!


 
Adrian MM. (X)
Adrian MM. (X)
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Biologically of indeterminate gender Apr 14, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

Adrian MM. wrote:

Jenny Forbes wrote:

The problem of masculine or feminine adjectives does not arise in English because nouns do not have gender.



Not quite. There are exceptions, like male and female electrical connectors and naval vessels that used to be labelled she and her by a centuries-old tradition in the British Royal Navy - and still is in the Merchant Navy - but is now to be officially referred to as it and its.



And all proper nouns referring to people are gender-specific, including that of transgenders, who, as pointed out by Robin, have at any time only one gender, even if not clear to everyone what that gender is!


Only one gender: not really - and it is unhelpful to be categoric in this anatomical respect cf. Ty K's discerning and more realistic labels quoted on this vexed matter: 'I know many a social justice warrior (SJW) who would disagree with this statement. They would throw words like "genderqueer", "gender fluid", "gender non-conforming", and "non-binary" at you.'

Again, there are exceptions like the Dominican Republican guevedoces who change gender from girl to boy at puberty (at the age of 12, they are neither boy nor girl), androgynous humans and well-known cases of 'ambiguous' Olympic athletes (going back to the 1936 Berlin Olympics).

[Edited at 2016-04-15 06:21 GMT]


 
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Adjectival agreement - Transgender texts






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