Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
officiers domaniaux
English translation:
Estate stewards
Added to glossary by
Francis Marche
Apr 24, 2014 16:05
10 yrs ago
French term
officiers domaniaux
French to English
Social Sciences
Religion
History/religion: about a cathedral in Belgium
"Fondé en xxxx – il fêtera son xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx centenaire en xxxx –, le chapitre cathédral réunit au Moyen âge jusqu’à 43 chanoines. Il était composé de clercs qui, initialement, menaient une vie commune. Ils étaient chargés de célébrer l’office quotidien et d’administrer la cathédrale, aidés en cela, jusqu’à la Révolution française, par un personnel laïque et ecclésiastique riche de plusieurs centaines de membres : chapelains, vicaires, clochemans (sonneurs de cloche), ***officiers domaniaux***, etc."
My initial thought was estate, but as far as I know the cathedral has no land attached to it.
See also http://www.wordreference.com/fren/domanial , which suggests national or state, but which doesn't seem like a good fit here.
My initial thought was estate, but as far as I know the cathedral has no land attached to it.
See also http://www.wordreference.com/fren/domanial , which suggests national or state, but which doesn't seem like a good fit here.
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +2 | Estate stewards | Francis Marche |
5 | officials who oversaw the cathedral's lands | Christopher Crockett |
References
0fficiers Domaniaux du Roy | Daryo |
Change log
May 8, 2014 17:43: Francis Marche Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+2
34 mins
Selected
Estate stewards
see as reference Everyday Life in Medieval England
By Christopher Dye
By Christopher Dye
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Christopher Crockett
: That's a good term --or "stewards of the cathedral's lands/estates." The text is not clear whether or not these guys were laymen or clerics, but if the latter, then perhaps what is meant is something like the Provosts I talk about in my answer.
19 mins
|
Thanks. You cast an interest light on the subject in your notes.
|
|
agree |
philgoddard
: Good idea.
1 hr
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
50 mins
officials who oversaw the cathedral's lands
I've actually not seen this term, but am rather certain as to what it means.
All cathedrals --as well as abbeys, collegial churches, etc.-- were great landowners. By the end of the Middle Ages the Church, collectively, was by far the largest landowner in France.
The management of this valuable source of revenue --the "domains" of the church-- of course required quite a few officers, usually beginning with the "provosts" (prévo^ts) of the cathedral chapter.
Every cathedral chapter was a bit different in its organization and customs --the setup at Chartres is the one I know best.
Just as, for ecclesiastical administrative purposes, the diocese was divided up into multiple Archdeaconries, it was also divided up into several prévo^tés, each the responsibility of a provost.
There the 5 or 6 (I forget how many there were) provosts were lower ranking "Dignataires" of the chapter --"officiers," if you will-- and each oversaw the land in their own part of the diocese.
Since they were essentially financial officers, and the possibilities for corruption were always present, at Chartres there had to be a major shakeup in the number and size of the prévotés in the mid-1190s, when the building of the new cathedral after the 1194 fire put a special financial strain on the Chapter.
While most chapters had to have had some analogous set up, and in most the major overseers of the management of the land were probably called Provosts, as I say, every chapter was a bit different, and I would hesitate to give the guys in your diocese this title unless I knew that was indeed the case.
If it was, then your officiers domaniaux should be called, in English, Provosts --though you should add some further explanation, like "the Provosts, who oversaw the domains of the cathedral."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2014-04-24 17:03:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Btw, you are, technically, right that "the cathedral had no land attached to it."
But that was because, for the middlevils, it wasn't the institution of the cathedral (or abbey, or whatever) that owned the land, but rather the *saint* to whom the cathedral was dedicated.
At Chartres (dedicated to the Virgin), the term used for the land was "the lands of St. Mary" --at the royal abbey of St. Denis, it was "the lands of St. Denis," etc.
All cathedrals --as well as abbeys, collegial churches, etc.-- were great landowners. By the end of the Middle Ages the Church, collectively, was by far the largest landowner in France.
The management of this valuable source of revenue --the "domains" of the church-- of course required quite a few officers, usually beginning with the "provosts" (prévo^ts) of the cathedral chapter.
Every cathedral chapter was a bit different in its organization and customs --the setup at Chartres is the one I know best.
Just as, for ecclesiastical administrative purposes, the diocese was divided up into multiple Archdeaconries, it was also divided up into several prévo^tés, each the responsibility of a provost.
There the 5 or 6 (I forget how many there were) provosts were lower ranking "Dignataires" of the chapter --"officiers," if you will-- and each oversaw the land in their own part of the diocese.
Since they were essentially financial officers, and the possibilities for corruption were always present, at Chartres there had to be a major shakeup in the number and size of the prévotés in the mid-1190s, when the building of the new cathedral after the 1194 fire put a special financial strain on the Chapter.
While most chapters had to have had some analogous set up, and in most the major overseers of the management of the land were probably called Provosts, as I say, every chapter was a bit different, and I would hesitate to give the guys in your diocese this title unless I knew that was indeed the case.
If it was, then your officiers domaniaux should be called, in English, Provosts --though you should add some further explanation, like "the Provosts, who oversaw the domains of the cathedral."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2014-04-24 17:03:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Btw, you are, technically, right that "the cathedral had no land attached to it."
But that was because, for the middlevils, it wasn't the institution of the cathedral (or abbey, or whatever) that owned the land, but rather the *saint* to whom the cathedral was dedicated.
At Chartres (dedicated to the Virgin), the term used for the land was "the lands of St. Mary" --at the royal abbey of St. Denis, it was "the lands of St. Denis," etc.
Reference comments
17 hrs
Reference:
0fficiers Domaniaux du Roy
"... SA MAJESTE EN SON CONSEIL A ordonné & ordonne, Que les Engagistes desdits Domaines et Greffes, Receveurs & Controlleurs des Domaine, Receveurs des Amendes, Controlleurs des Dépens, Greffiers des Affirmations, & autres Officiers Domaniaux ..."
Recueil des anciens édits et ordonnances du Roy concernant les domaines et ...
By Louis Le Caron, page 272
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nOkW-kzl3zQC&pg=PA271&lpg...
Histoire de la Maison Royale de France, et des grands officiers de la Couronne
By Anselme de Sainte-Marie, Ange de Sainte-Rosalie
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oQP15CnzVicC&pg=PA519&lpg...
Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la maison royale de France, des ...
By Anselme de Sainte-Marie (1625-1694), Honoré Caille Du Fourny, Ange de Sainte-Rosalie (1655-1726), Simplicien ([Père])
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MdlEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA519&lpg...
Recueil des anciens édits et ordonnances du Roy concernant les domaines et ...
By Louis Le Caron, page 272
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nOkW-kzl3zQC&pg=PA271&lpg...
Histoire de la Maison Royale de France, et des grands officiers de la Couronne
By Anselme de Sainte-Marie, Ange de Sainte-Rosalie
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oQP15CnzVicC&pg=PA519&lpg...
Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la maison royale de France, des ...
By Anselme de Sainte-Marie (1625-1694), Honoré Caille Du Fourny, Ange de Sainte-Rosalie (1655-1726), Simplicien ([Père])
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MdlEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA519&lpg...
Discussion
As well as, yes, collecting taxes and duties owed to the crown.
They were, of course, all laymen --free men of middle birth-- and, indeed, "the embryonic core of the future state bureaucracy."
They surely had guys who worked under them in the king's interest, who might better be described as the "stewards" of the royal estates --who actually did the day to day management of the king's lands.
It would be a very, very exceptional circumstance where an overseer of Church property would be appointed by the king --I doubt it that was ever the case, at least in the normal course of events.
However, the king did have (early on) the customary right to pillage all the property of a deceased bishop --everything in his house that wasn't nailed down (and some stuff that was). But the episcopal _manse_ remained in tact, perhaps with the king enjoying the revenues from it during the vacancy.
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_...
@AllegroTrans
I did find both of these refs; they give me the impressions that "Officiers domaniaux" were appointed by the King and were some embryonic core of the future State bureaucracy; but some other occurrences leave the possibility of "Officiers domaniaux" existing on other domains. Too much digging needed to be sure. Getting hold of a French historian is what I would do, if I needed it badly.
http://ccrh.revues.org/1233
I assume that the fundamentals of estate/property management were similar, though there may have been some variation in the customs and nomenclature of offices.
For instance, was your single Estate Steward overseeing lay or ecclesiastical lands?
Though there may well have been some instances of lay Provosts overseeing cathedral (saints') land in France (since there was no consistent "system"), I *believe* that such a case would have been the exception rather than the rule, and that something similar to what I know from Chartres was much more common.
And there, since St. Mary of Chartres owned a *lot* of land, there must have been quite a few "sous-prévo^ts" (though I've never seen them referred to, and certainly not by that title) under each of the Provosts of the chapter. Some of these helpers may well have been laymen.
In a monastic context, I believe that it was the monks of the abbey's priories which oversaw the management of the _villae_.
In addition, there is the question of whether or not these "officiers" is a question of the top-ranking Provosts of the cathedral chapter, or some underlings --if the latter, then "manorial overseers" would work fine.
http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/projects/manorialrecords/man...