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Glossary entry

Dutch term or phrase:

rotatiemoment

English translation:

turning moment, rotation moment

Added to glossary by Jack den Haan
Oct 21, 2017 16:28
6 yrs ago
Dutch term

rotatiemoment

Dutch to English Tech/Engineering Mechanics / Mech Engineering
I found https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_dutch/automotive_cars_... … where "rotatiemoment" is translated as "rotating torque". However, isn’t "torque" sufficient (as a translation of "rotatiemoment")?

I have also found it translated as "moment of rotation" in one EU source.

context:

"...waarbij de spoelen en het magneet systeem zo gemonteerd zijn dat door het sturen van een elektrische stroom er doorheen een rotatiemoment kan opgewekt worden op de XXX-as..."
Proposed translations (English)
5 +1 turning moment
References
In physics, <i>a moment is a turning eff...
Change log

Oct 26, 2017 19:44: Jack den Haan Created KOG entry

Discussion

Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 22, 2017:
continued This becomes clear because he/s basically says the exact same thing in several places (also referring to the exact same reference numerals), but uses them interchangeably.

In this case, I think there's no use adding more confusion by trying to use two synonyms in English.

I am also not sure about adding the Dutch term in brackets. My colleague never mentioned this as a possibility when translating patents, but for some reason I thought this is never done.
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 22, 2017:
@Jack: yes, sometimes when they have not yet been filed, I can still discuss it with the author. However, I only occasionally translate such patent applications, where I work directly with the patent attorney who wrote it. most of my training in this area, if I can even call it training, has been by working directly with a patent attorney / en>nl patent translator, where I translate the doc (nl>en), and send it to him, and he then sends it back with corrections/comments etc., which I carefully take note of for the next one.

sadly, 90% of the patent applications I translate these days are for an agency, who gives me very little information on which stage the document is in, and doesn't allow me to communicate directly with the end client.

In any case, I just sent my patent attorney colleague an email, because after having scanned the entire document, and making a note of every single instance of either "draaimoment" or "rotatiemoment", it has now become 100% clear that the author indeed was a bit sloppy, and simply meant the exact same thing.
Jack den Haan Oct 22, 2017:
@Barend Yes, in practice rotatiemoment = draaimoment = koppel = torque. Strictly speaking, however, there is a difference between 'moment' and 'koppel' (in Dutch) or 'moment' and 'torque' in English, as your reference below explains.
Jack den Haan Oct 22, 2017:
@Michael re: I ... assume they mean the same thing Yes, they probably do mean the same thing, although strictly speaking moment and torque are not the same. See https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_en_koppel for example, where 'koppel' is obviously torque. In patent translations, however, you need to provide an almost mathematically accurate representation of the source text which, regardless of any external documents it refers to, is an independent entity in its own right. In your case, I would translate 'draaimoment' as 'turning moment' with the Dutch source term in square brackets after it upon first use in the document. Where the source text refers to 'rotatiemoment', I would translate that as 'rotation moment' with the Dutch source term also in square brackets after it upon first use. If you use 'torque' in both cases, there would be no distinction between the two source terms in your translation. Even if technically correct, that is a no go in patent translation. As a translator, you can't assume they mean the same thing.
If the patent you are translating has not yet been filed at a Patent Office and there is an opportunity of discussing the text with the patent attorney who wrote it, I would do that. He might want to revise.
Barend van Zadelhoff Oct 22, 2017:
rotatiemoment = draaimoment = koppel = torque
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 21, 2017:
Thanks Jack! the reason I was thinking of using (just) "torque", is my patent application specifically mentions "US20110147209:

re US20110147209, see the following (available online @ http://www.google.com.pg/patents/US20110147209 ):

"Supporting device for a magnetron assembly with a rotatable target
US 20110147209 A1

ABSTRACT
A support device for a magnetron arrangement with a rotating target includes a housing with a drive shaft mounted to rotate in the housing. An end of the drive shaft accessible from outside of the housing connects to the rotating target and another end lies within the housing for introduction of a torque. An electric motor with a stator and a rotor is arranged within the housing to generate a torque."

I obviously can't quote what I'm actually translating here, but the above context is very similar to my own.

In the text I am working on, the author used the term "draaimoment" a few times (when referring to the above patent, which I therefore translated as "torque"), and then switched to "rotatiemoment", which they only used twice. I therefore assume they mean the same thing.
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 21, 2017:
yeah, normally I would add a comma there but in patents I tend to mirror the src text's use of them, if possible
Barend van Zadelhoff Oct 21, 2017:
I would place a comma between 'coils' and 'torque':-)

by sending an electric current through the coils, torque can be generated on
Barend van Zadelhoff Oct 21, 2017:
Torque, moment, or moment of force is rotational force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 21, 2017:
I have this so far: door het sturen van een elektrische stroom er doorheen een rotatiemoment kan opgewekt worden op de XXX-as =
by sending an electric current through the coils torque can be generated on the XXX drive shaft

‘torque: a force that tends to cause rotation’ (Oxforddictionaries.com)
philgoddard Oct 21, 2017:
Rotational/angular momentum?
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 21, 2017:
PS: would this make sense:

rotatiemoment; draaimoment; koppel =
torque; moment; moment of force; torque moment; moment of torque; turning moment
Michael Beijer (asker) Oct 21, 2017:
rotatiemoment = torque De aandrijvingen van Parker zijn geschikt voor regeling van de snelheid, het rotatiemoment of de positie, en zijn beschikbaar met een bedrijfsbereik van minder dan één tot meer dan 2.000 pk. (http://ph.parker.com/nl/nl/ac-drives-and-accessories )

=

Parker drives are suitable for speed, torque or position control and are available in power ranges from fractional to over 2,000 hp. (http://ph.parker.com/nl/en/ac-drives-and-accessories )

Proposed translations

+1
5 hrs
Selected

turning moment

What they mean here, of course, is that a force is generated that, in the given configuration, can cause a shaft lying in the XXX axis to turn, i.e. causes or tends to cause angular displacement of the shaft with respect to that axis. Since this term occurs in a patent text, I would stick to the source as closely as possible and translate it as 'turning moment'.

An alternative term in Dutch is 'draaimoment', which GWIT, besides 'turning moment', also renders as 'moment of torque' or simply 'torque'. I would not use these alternatives in this context because 'torque' is usually, although certainly not exclusively, used in the context of engine or motor specifications in combination with power and rotational speed. In that context, the term 'koppel' is usually used in Dutch. 'Moment of torque', in my humble opinion, is rather tautologous too.

You will find a reasonably good explanation of the concepts of moments and torque in a series of presentations on the Khan Academy website (please see the ref. below). Even there, however, you will find that the terms 'moment' and 'torque' are sometimes used interchangeably.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2017-10-22 11:48:23 GMT)
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Or preferably, upon further consideration and given the additional context: rotation moment (see discussion above). Both terms obviously mean the same thing.

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Note added at 5 days (2017-10-26 19:41:50 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

You're welcome, Michael!
Reference:

http://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/torque-angular-momentum/torque-tutorial/v/introduction-to-torque

Note from asker:
Thanks Jack! I will use "rotation moment" throughout.
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : hi Jack. not my field even remotely but I know that it's most definitely yours
6 mins
Thank you, P :-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for the help!"

Reference comments

8 hrs
Reference:

In physics, a moment is a turning effect of a force. It is an expression involving the product of a distance and a physical quantity, and in this way it accounts for how the physical quantity is located or arranged. Moments are usually defined with respect to a fixed reference point; they deal with physical quantities as measured at some distance from that reference point. For example, the moment of force acting on an object, often called torque, is the product of the force and the distance from a reference point. In principle, any physical quantity can be multiplied by distance to produce a moment; commonly used quantities include forces, masses, and electric charge distributions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics)

Krachtmoment, of simpelweg moment (zie bijvoorbeeld ook impulsmoment en traagheidsmoment), is in de mechanica en constructieleer een maat voor het rotatie-effect van een kracht (zie ook bij koppel).

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(mechanica)



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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-10-22 00:44:30 GMT)
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Verschil koppel en moment:

Er is sprake van een koppel als er meerdere krachten op een voorwerp worden uitgeoefend, die op verschillende plaatsen op het voorwerp aangrijpen, zodat ze het voorwerp zouden kunnen laten draaien. De grootte van een koppel is gelijk aan de kracht maal de arm. De arm is de loodrechte afstand tot de krachtvectoren. Het verschil tussen een koppel en een moment is dat het krachtenspel van een koppel zodanig symmetrisch is dat er geen netto dwarskracht overblijft; indien het voorwerp vrij zou kunnen bewegen zou er alleen rotatie en geen translatie (verplaatsing) van het voorwerp plaatsvinden.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koppel_(aandrijftechniek)

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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-10-22 00:58:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

....rotatiemoment kan opgewekt worden op de XXX-as...

Zie onder

...het draaimoment dat op de as wordt uitgeoefend...

Volgens mij hebben ze het hier gewoon over 'torque'.

koppel = draaimoment = torque

draaimoment = rotatiemoment

Bij elektromotoren praat men ook van losbreek koppel en kipkoppel. Het losbreek koppel is het draaimoment dat op de as wordt uitgeoefend bij het inschakelen van de motor. Het kipkoppel is het hoogste draaimoment dat de elektromotor af geeft tijdens het opstarten. Het losbreek koppel ligt vaak rond de 80% van het nominale koppel en het kipkoppel ligt vaak rond de 200 tot 250% van het nominale draaimoment.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koppel_(aandrijftechniek)
Note from asker:
be-thanked for the may-thinking, Barend!
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