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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

wasserstoffärmer

English translation:

with lower hydrogen content; lower in hydrogen

Added to glossary by Coqueiro
Jan 19, 2014 17:06
10 yrs ago
German term

wasserstoffärmere

German to English Science Chemistry; Chem Sci/Eng
"Bromderivate vom Chinaalkaloiden und entsprechende wasserstoffärmere Verbindungen"

Now, "anhydrogenous" does not sound right ( does not account for the 'aermere' form; "an-" signifies total absence thereof, doesn't it?). And I am not sure about hydrogen-deprived, hydrogen-deficient, etc.

Any educated ideas?

Thanks!
Proposed translations (English)
2 +3 lower in hydrogen
4 +1 poorer in hydrogen
3 hydrogen-deficient
3 hydrogen-poorer
5 -2 unsaturated
2 +1 of lesser hydrogen content
4 -2 bonds with fewer hydrogen atoms
Change log

Jan 24, 2014 22:59: Coqueiro Created KOG entry

Jan 24, 2014 23:01: Coqueiro changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1166387">Coqueiro's</a> old entry - "wasserstoffärmer"" to ""lower in hydrogen""

Discussion

Lirka (asker) Jan 24, 2014:
@ Andrew Thanks for your linguistic advice!
rainerc (X) Jan 20, 2014:
I know it sounds translated.. but you can't ignore the fact that it was used in English journals.
Lancashireman Jan 20, 2014:
"Back in the old days" ... ... when German was the first language of chemistry. That's why it sounds translated.
rainerc (X) Jan 20, 2014:
@ Andrew 'poorer' was certainly used back in the old days of chemistry, just have a look at Marga's references (which I so vehemently criticised). lirka needs to decide if she should translate into 1910s English or modern English.
Lancashireman Jan 20, 2014:
with (a) lower hydrogen content - 'lower' rather than 'lesser'
- 'with' rather than 'of'
- the 'a' is optional

Certainly not 'poorer', which sounds like a value judgement.
rainerc (X) Jan 20, 2014:
@ lirka: Thanks for your kind words. Always a pleasure to help!
Lirka (asker) Jan 20, 2014:
@ Andrew Would you prefer "of lesser H content" or "of lower H content"? Linguistically speaking.
Lirka (asker) Jan 20, 2014:
Thanks to everyone for this interesting discussion. I am reliving my college organic chem nightmares here!!
Lirka (asker) Jan 20, 2014:
@ rainerc Thanks a lot for posting an explanation disqualifying your own answer, very professional of you! This is a hard question, yes, and a damn hard text overall. Uff
gangels (X) Jan 20, 2014:
Isn't everyone making... a mountain out of a molehill?

It clearly states that it is 'poorer in hydrogen', so why not go with it or one of the alternatives except unsaturated.
rainerc (X) Jan 20, 2014:
@ David The last thing I want to do is offend anybody here, but this is a very difficult question, even for a chemist like myself. Not only are the exact reaction details missing, we don't even now the chemical structures involved. Without these one can only make an educated gues. Although I no longer work in the field, I still feel passionate about the subject and am proud when I can provide help.
rainerc (X) Jan 20, 2014:
wrong end of the stick! I got it wrong! I did not take into account that certain hydrogen atoms could in fact be replaced by the halogen reagent (bromine in this case) in which case the product would have one hydrogen atom less for every halogen atom that replaced it. Usually these halogen-containing compounds eliminate HX to form an unsaturated compound. That's what I was getting at. Sorry for the confusion caused! "Unsaturated" does not apply in this case.

Proposed translations

+3
10 mins
German term (edited): wasserstoffärmer
Selected

lower in hydrogen

The kerogen within oil shale is also of different organic composition than coal, which enjoys a more matured organic makeup that is lower in hydrogen and higher in oxygen than oil shale kerogen:
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~pisupati/ACSOutreach/Oil_Shale.html

Peer comment(s):
agree Steffen Walter
29 mins
Dankeschön ;-)
neutral rainerc (X) : not used in organic chemistry. // I'm not saying you're wrong, but kerogen is not a synthetic organic compound. Thus, I'm not convinced that this is the best answer.
2 hrs
Mein Link führt zur American Chemical Society, der Text handelt von Kerogenen.
agree David Moore (X) : I wonder if rainerc has got this one a little round his neck?
15 hrs
thanks ;-)
agree Lancashireman : Linguistic rather than scientific observation: I would prefer 'lower in hydrogen content' or (better) 'with lower hydrogen content'.
21 hrs
thanks & agree!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks!"
1 hr

hydrogen-deficient

I like hydrogen-deficient the best. See example below:

"These are among the most hydrogen-deficient compounds found in petroleum distillates."
Reference:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=27&ved=0CEwQFjAGOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Faccessengineeringlibrary.com%2Fpdfdo

Peer comment(s):
neutral rainerc (X) : not used in organic chemistry
1 hr
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

hydrogen-poorer

or poorer in hydrogen
Peer comment(s):
neutral rainerc (X) : no references?
32 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs

poorer in hydrogen


... I seem to remember.

Beside^ acids of the fatty series whose general formula is
CnHjsnC^, acids belonging to several other series, poorer in
hydrogen than the above, are found in fats. The simplest
example of such a series of acids is furnished by the acids of
the Oleic series, the members of which differ from the corre-
sponding members of the fatty acid series in having two atoms
of hydrogen less.
http://archive.org/stream/introductiontoth029596mbp/introduc...

The working out of the constitution of the so-called
saturated compounds offered fewer difficulties than that
of the compounds poorer in hydrogen, the unsaturated
ones.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/ernst-von-meyer/a-hist...

Further, from each hydrocarbon, CnHon + 2, by theory at least, compounds poorer in hydrogen are formed by the Avithdrawal of one or more couples of atoms of hydrogen, and from each of these again substitution compounds may be produced.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/john-gray-mckendrick/a...

Beside^ acids of the fatty series whose general formula is
CnH2nO2, acids belonging to several other series, poorer in
hydrogen than the above, are found in fats.
http://tera-3.ul.cs.cmu.edu/NASD/4a7f1db4-5792-415c-be79-266...
Peer comment(s):
agree rainerc (X) : your 1st and 2nd ref. also mention "unsaturated" (more so than "poor"). Your 3rd reference is too old, double bonds were not yet known. //please disregard what I said. You've provided the best references so far.
25 mins
So, how would you translate my second ref. where both "poorer in hydrogen" and "unsaturated" are used? I think you shoot yourself a bit in your own foot.
Something went wrong...
-2
2 hrs

unsaturated

We are talking about organic chemistry here and not fossil fuels.
The following book is from 1890 and fits in well with the source text.
http://www.archive.org/stream/kurzeslehrbuchd02berngoog/kurz...
"Aus wasserstoffärmeren (ungesättigten) Kohlenwasser-
stoffen (siehe diese) durch Addition von nascirendem Wasser-
stoff (Aethan aus Aethylen oder Acetylen und Wasserstoff, auch
durch Vermittelung von Platinschwarz oder durch Erhitzen des
Gasgemisches auf 400 bis 500*^). Auch Erhitzen mit Jodwasser-
stoffsäure (s. a. 2*), oder Addition von Halogen oder Halogen-
wasserstoff und Austausch des Halogens gegen Wasserstoff nach.."
What is described here is the addition of hydrogen, halogens or hydrogenhalides to unsaturated hydrocarbons to yield either saturated hydrocarbons (addition of H2) or addition of HX. Exactly the same reaction is described in lirka's source text.
See also:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungesättigte_Verbindungen and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_and_unsaturated_comp...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2014-01-19 19:50:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I should add that cinchona alkaloids contain several unsaturated C-C bonds, also called 'double bonds' which can react with hydrogen, halogens or hydrogenhalides.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-01-19 20:09:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

see this patent from 1913 for the use of "unsaturated":
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2014-01-19 22:38:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By the early 20th century "ungesättigt/unsaturated" was commonly used.
See:
http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/eserv/eth:20721/eth-2072... and

http://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/1540/ChemR1895.nr2.pdf
Peer comment(s):
neutral Marga Shaw : As I said below, I ask myself the question why the German text, probably consciously, has chosen to refer to "compounds poorer in hydrogen" and not "unsaturated compounds"?/I do not think that we are asked to analyse the history of chemistry.
2 hrs
it dates back to the middle of the 19th century when elemental analysis was used to determine the % C-, H- ,N and O-content of a molecule. The exact mol. structure remained unknown. Towards the end of the 19th cent. "unsaturated" was widely used.
disagree Cilian O'Tuama : Jumping the gun? Why not "less saturated"?
6 hrs
see my discussion entry, but "less saturated" can't be used either
disagree Coqueiro : Wo bleibt hier der Komparativ? // Dann erlaube ich mir hier ein "disagree", damit das auch späteren Nutzern des Glossars deutlicher wird.
13 hrs
see my discussion entry. // Gerne, es ist ja auch falsch!
Something went wrong...
+1
13 hrs

of lesser hydrogen content

a synthesis of the other solutions offered, no better, no worse
Peer comment(s):
agree Lancashireman : Ah, just seen this after posting qualified agree with coqueiro (see above). It is indeed the hydrogen content that is low.
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
16 hrs
German term (edited): wasserstoffärmere

bonds with fewer hydrogen atoms

.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Coqueiro : Abgesehen davon, dass es dafür keinen einzigen Treffer im Web gibt, sind "Bindung" und "Verbindung" auch in der Chemie nicht gleichbedeutend.
41 mins
disagree rainerc (X) : with Coqueiro
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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