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Mommens de Viude

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

mercier

English translation:

haberdasher

Added to glossary by Tony M
May 6, 2006 20:33
18 yrs ago
French term

mercenaire

French to English Other History Trade corporation in 16th century Belgium
I'm a bit confused, translating an article about the town of La Roche-en-Ardenne in Belgium.

According to the writer, here as elsewhere, around about the 16th c. or so, the various trades in the town got together to form 'corporations'; the trouble is, they mention as one of these trades 'mercenaires' --- now it seems hardly likely that you'd have an 'Honourable Guild of Mercenary Soldiers', still less of 'hirelings'. However, the other trades mentioned in the same sentence are weavers, tanners, and cordwainers... so I think they are probably meaning to refer to 'mercers', or perhaps, 'haberdashers' or 'drapers'.

So my question is really this, in 2 parts, then:

1) Can anyone confirm that 'mercenaire' is ever used like this to refer to the cloth trade?

2) If not, can anyone confirm the likelihood of a (spell-checker-induced?) typo for 'mercier'?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 haberdasher, haberdashery
4 +4 mercier, mercerie ...
3 +2 mercerie, mercière
4 merchants
3 still not obvious

Discussion

Tony M (asker) May 6, 2006:
LOL!
PFB (X) May 6, 2006:
Agreed - Still, I like the idea of a Mercenaries' Guild - fighting for ... their rights :-)))
Tony M (asker) May 6, 2006:
QUESTION IN PRE-CLOSURE Just to warn everyone that I am satisfied with the information I've received already, but will wait the regulation 24 hrs before closing; so please don't waste any more time on this, unless of course you have something you'd specifically like to contribute.
Tony M (asker) May 6, 2006:
To Philippe: Thanks, yes, even OED says the same thing --- a 'hireling' However, I don't think these 'guilds' (really representing the 'patronat') would have anything in common with a mere labour union, even suposing one could have existed then; as for soldiers --- well yes, but again, it didn't quite seem to fit with the more tranquil activities of weavers, tanners etc.
Tony M (asker) May 6, 2006:
Well, thanks a lot for that link, W/A! Don't know why my own Googling failed to show it up (yes, I DID try before posting!). Anyway, this is the exact text I am translating all over again --- better, I hope, than that dire attempt! Still, at least it did confirm my hunch!
Tony M (asker) May 6, 2006:
Sentence in FR: "Au Moyen Age, les principaux métiers se groupaient en corporations avec leur chef, leurs privilèges, leur saint patron. A La Roche, c'étaient principalement les tisserands, les mercenaires, les tanneurs et les cordonniers."

In fact, as you can see, it was in the Middle Ages, and not the 16th c., as I said! Getting ahead of myself again!!
PFB (X) May 6, 2006:
Dic. Acad franç mentions an old meaning of 'mercenaire' is 'Personne qui travaille (pour un) salaire', so not nec a soldier. Any poss it could be sthg like a wage-earners' union? Seems far-fetched, but who knows?
writeaway May 6, 2006:
http://www.la-roche-tourisme.com/uk/histoire-frame.htm
Julie Barber May 6, 2006:
Well fighting was quite common at that time! it was considered a profession, so you never know! :)
writeaway May 6, 2006:
can you show a sentence in French, TD?

Proposed translations

+3
1 hr
Selected

haberdasher, haberdashery

a bit of a case of 'history (translation) repeating itself ;-)


During the Middle Ages, the most important professions were grouped in corporations, having their own leader, their privileges, their patron saint. In La Roche it were weavers, haberdashers, tanners and shoemakers.

http://www.la-roche-tourisme.com/uk/histoire-frame.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-05-06 22:03:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Au Moyen Age, les principaux métiers se groupaient en corporations avec leur chef, leurs privilèges, leur saint patron. A La Roche, c'étaient principalement les tisserands, les merceniers, les tanneurs et les cordonniers.
http://www.la-roche-tourisme.com/fr/histoire-frame.htm
Peer comment(s):
agree Julie Barber : fabulous...well done :)) a 'haberdasher' is such a great word too:)
6 mins
seems the typo in French hasn't been edited out. but the NL version confirms it's mercerie. (garen en bandverkopers).that's how translation goes in Belgium-I often have 2 versions (ie Fr and NL) of same doc for comparison..
agree MikeGarcia : Congrats for a darned good job!
9 hrs
agree Mark Nathan
23 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks a lot, W/A, for coming up with exactly the right links, and the confirmation I needed. Your tri-lingual input is most helpful --- and I'm SO pleased I get to use such a lovely word as 'haberdashers' after all!"
+4
16 mins

mercier, mercerie ...

Un mercier (ou une mercière) est un marchand d'articles de mercerie. Une mercerie est l'ensemble des marchandises servant aux travaux de couture et aux vêtements OU une boutique de mercier. Des articles de mercerie seraient des aiguilles, des boutons, des rubans, etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2006-05-06 20:52:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think that it's a mistake ... probably by a faulty spell-check ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 29 mins (2006-05-06 21:02:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I was also thinking along the lines of juliebarba; you never know ...
I also like writeaway's link ...
Note from asker:
Thanks a lot for your speedy input, confirming what I rather suspected. I hope you won't mind if I give the points to W/A on this occasion, as she actually came up with exactly the right proof I was looking for.
Peer comment(s):
agree Mark Nathan : snap - yours came up when I sent mine
3 mins
I understand ...
agree Kate Hudson (X)
12 mins
Merci Kate ...
agree Ingeborg Gowans (X) : that would be my takemtoo. We have a clothing store here that is called Mercerie xyz (Canada), in the French speaking part
13 mins
Thanks for your input, Ingeborg. I buy my clothes at a "Mercerie pour hommes" ...
agree Gina W
1 day 2 hrs
Merci, gad ...
Something went wrong...
+2
19 mins

mercerie, mercière

Must be a typo.
This site has a list of vieux métiers

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2006-05-06 20:59:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Actually "guild of mercenaries" gets 544 google hits - but I think its all computer games.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 49 mins (2006-05-06 21:22:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This quite entertaing, but probably not relevant:

http://www.mercwars.com/
Reference:

http://morel.and.co.free.fr/metiers.html

Note from asker:
Thanks a lot, Mark, for your nearly-as-speedy input, and for that rather interesting link! If you are able, please could you re-post that 'vieux métiers' link, that seems to have gone astray? I'm sure it would be v. useful for others in the future. I hope you won't mind if I give the points to W/A on this occasion, as she actually came up with exactly the right proof I was looking for.
Peer comment(s):
agree Jean-Claude Gouin : Let's not forget "mercier" ...
4 mins
yes, but the feminine seems a more likely typo
agree Gina W
1 day 2 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 hr

still not obvious


I ran a search on yahoo (les tisserands, les mercenaires, les tanneurs et les cordonniers) and came up with:

http://www.dhs.ch/externe/protect/textes/f/F7478-1-270.html

Pour se protéger des catastrophes (incendie, débâcle sur le Rhin, inondations, menaces militaires), le Conseil mit en place au XVe s. un système d'alarme d'une efficacité discutable. Chaque corporation était responsable d'un tronçon de la muraille. L'arsenal abritait dès la fin du XIVe s. une assez bonne artillerie. Pour aller en campagne, B. avait les contingents des corporations, des cavaliers mercenaires et une troupe formée des "habitants" candidats à la bourgeoisie

**avait les contingents des corporations, des cavaliers mercenaires**

It also has great chart of:
Choix de quelques métiers organisés en corporations (vers 1500)

yes mercenaries are excluded from it and mercerie ISNT on it either.....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-05-06 21:53:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK, so it's not same town but the link is pretty interesting for your context!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-05-06 21:58:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A second example of use in relation to middle ages (although as a craft as per suggestions above?):

http://agora.qc.ca/reftext.nsf/Documents/Moyen_Age--Histoire...

Tous les travaux de l'intérieur, à la cuisine, à l'infirmerie, etc., étaient exécutés par les moines eux-mêmes; c'étaient des convers qui faisaient l'office de maçons, de tanneurs, de boulangers, de foulons, de forgerons. Au XIIe et même pendant une partie du XIIIe siècle il n'y avait guère qu'à l'extérieur qu'on employât des mercenaires ou des corvéables; les convers étaient aussi laboureurs, bergers, vignerons.
Note from asker:
Thanks, Julie! All interesting background material, though as I said, I just didn't really feel mercenaries was very likely
Peer comment(s):
neutral Richard Benham : I think everyone, including Tony, already knew that "mercenaires" could be mercenaries. But would they really have a guild?//OK, but your examples reinforce the *lack* of connection....
4 hrs
I wasn't suggesting that he didn't as I did actually read his question properly! I put it forward because the site mentions the guilds and mercenaries together
Something went wrong...
22 hrs

merchants

yes typo for mercier, I think it has to do withsellers of embellishments such as ribbons etc.
Note from asker:
Thanks, RFM! Your alternative suggestion could certainly have been a good solution, though as it happens, I think we've finally got to the bottom of it...
Something went wrong...
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