| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Did I miss something? Tópico cartaz: Madeleine van Zanten
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Kevin Lossner 
Portugal
Local time: 19:50
alemão para inglês
+ ...
| Thank you sir, may I work for less? | Jul 3, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
In that "best rates" thread, I found out that there are some people who actually like to be told the rate, rather than ask what they charge. I know that many of us accept it to a lesser or greater degree, but I had never realised there were some who actually preferred it.
Indeed. Why do you think that the dominatrixes & their male counterparts do so well in the "scene"? Or why so many put up with controlling SOs? Lotsa people out there who like to be told what to do.
That said, I have nothing against hearing someone's idea of what they should pay. I'm always free to enlighten them after that. If the offer is low enough (like some fool publisher who approached me about a book at USD 0.07 the other day), I'm tempted to tell them that they are too generous and ought to spread the wealth around in the former colonies or blow it on wine, women and song and let Google Translate do the job. Or crowdsource it. Works for ProZ and seems to be the model favored by LinkedIn now too
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Alemanha
Local time: 20:50
inglês para alemão
+ ...
| What's the difference? | Jul 3, 2009 |
Hi "polyglot",
(still cannot get used to talking to professionals without a proper name... sorry, it's just me)
polyglot45 wrote:
if ever this gets posted......
Why should it not be posted?
She will correct me if I am wrong but her point seems to be that if you pay to be a member of a site - this one or any other - you have the right to expect a little protection against the (many) bottom-feeders of this world.
Sorry to be blunt here, but - why? On what grounds would you expect such protection, and for what purpose? Why would you want a third party to decide, on your behalf, what constitutes an "acceptable" price? If EUR 0.025 is unacceptable, what makes EUR 0.08 acceptable?
I run an independent business - the moment ProZ.com starts telling me what price should be "acceptable" to me, I'm out of here. Setting a minimum price for one's services is a core function of running an independent business, as is the ability to negotiate with a prospective client (and that includes saying "no, thank you").
The response that the site is only reflecting the laws of the marketplace is - sorry folks - somewhat specious in my eyes.
Please do not misquote me - I never mentioned "the laws of the marketplace" (I find this distinction vital): ProZ.com reflects the entire market that's out there. Professional freelancers as well as those who "can English", highly reputable outsourcers and crooks, those willing to do business at a reasonable price - and those who are willing to work for a pittance.
IMO sites like this that give people a place to post their cut-rate jobs are actually CONTRIBUTING to the state of the market, not just reflecting it.
Would you mind explaining that mechanism?
What I'm trying to get across is this: if outsourcers keep posting such assignments here, there's probably a reason - presumably, there are some providers who keep accepting such offers. Good luck to them - but don't fool yourself believing that someone who tries to pick from the bottom end can be 'educated' to pay up.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | Niraja Nanjundan (X)
Local time: 00:20
alemão para inglês
| Agree, Ralf.... | Jul 3, 2009 |
Ralf Lemster wrote:
Sorry, Madeleine, but I fail to see the sense in yet another rant on low prices. Just let it go.
.....but this thread has now become a "burning topic" nevertheless
| | | | | ProZ reflects the market overall?? | Jul 3, 2009 |
Ralf,
Can you please explain your "Proz reflects the market overall"? I have a feeling I am missing something.
My experience with "the market" (or the different segments of the market I have experienced since going freelance (fr to en) in 2002 ranges from 0.08 to 0.36 EUR and from 35 eur/hr to 125 eur/hr. (I am by no means weighing in authoritatively on "the translation market" - just stating my experience over seven years moving "up" through different market segments f... See more Ralf,
Can you please explain your "Proz reflects the market overall"? I have a feeling I am missing something.
My experience with "the market" (or the different segments of the market I have experienced since going freelance (fr to en) in 2002 ranges from 0.08 to 0.36 EUR and from 35 eur/hr to 125 eur/hr. (I am by no means weighing in authoritatively on "the translation market" - just stating my experience over seven years moving "up" through different market segments for my language pair and geographical location as I've gained experience and learned how to sell myself a little better...)
My experience on Proz.com has very, very little overlap with my non-virtual-world experience (and I am not just talking about direct job postings on this site, but also "offline" contacts via the directory, indirect contacts through colleagues I've "met" on the site, etc.)
Do you really (honestly) feel that Proz reflects anything other than the bottom end of the translation market(s)? ▲ Collapse
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Erzsébet Czopyk
Hungria
Local time: 20:50
Membro (2006)
russo para húngaro
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | would you like anything else? | Jul 3, 2009 |
[quote]Ralf Lemster wrote:
She will correct me if I am wrong but her point seems to be that if you pay to be a member of a site - this one or any other - you have the right to expect a little protection against the (many) bottom-feeders of this world.
Sorry to be blunt here, but - why? On what grounds would you expect such protection, and for what purpose? Why would you want a third party to decide, on your behalf, what constitutes an "acceptable" price? If EUR 0.025 is unacceptable, what makes EUR 0.08 acceptable?
I run an independent business - the moment ProZ.com starts telling me what price should be "acceptable" to me, I'm out of here. Setting a minimum price for one's services is a core function of running an independent business, as is the ability to negotiate with a prospective client (and that includes saying "no, thank you").
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Completely agree with Ralf. The site is a free place for the offers, the site management makes everything possible (for example, Blue Board is a very important place) protect you. But the risk is yours, as the profit is yours too.
As a paying member of this site, I see each month developing site, ambitious staff, fast response for all my questions - would you like anything else for this price?
As for me, I simply ignore these clients, ignore as a freelance translator and moreover, ignore them as an agency owner. A year ago I changed my strategy - if somethong worth it, I can and will invest my time, if not - I just make a step forward without wasting my nerves and time.
Nice translation and weekend ahead,
(Hi Ralf especially to you)
Liza Czopyk
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Alemanha
Local time: 20:50
inglês para alemão
+ ...
| In my experience, yes | Jul 3, 2009 |
Hi Sara,
Can you please explain your "Proz reflects the market overall"? I have a feeling I am missing something.
You probably are.
My experience with "the market" (or the different segments of the market I have experienced since going freelance (fr to en) in 2002 ranges from 0.08 to 0.36 EUR and from 35 eur/hr to 125 eur/hr.
Sounds pretty realistic to me.
My experience on Proz.com has very, very little overlap with my non-virtual-world experience (and I am not just talking about direct job postings on this site, but also "offline" contacts via the directory, indirect contacts through colleagues I've "met" on the site, etc.)
You need to factor in that you are not a member.
Do you really (honestly) feel that Proz reflects anything other than the bottom end of the translation market(s)?
Absolutely.
You may want to double-check my Blue Board record - and I have had contacts through my profile that turned into business.
Best regards,
Ralf
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Ralf Lemster wrote: Hi Sara,
Can you please explain your "Proz reflects the market overall"? I have a feeling I am missing something.
You probably are. My experience with "the market" (or the different segments of the market I have experienced since going freelance (fr to en) in 2002 ranges from 0.08 to 0.36 EUR and from 35 eur/hr to 125 eur/hr. Sounds pretty realistic to me. My experience on Proz.com has very, very little overlap with my non-virtual-world experience (and I am not just talking about direct job postings on this site, but also "offline" contacts via the directory, indirect contacts through colleagues I've "met" on the site, etc.) You need to factor in that you are not a member. Do you really (honestly) feel that Proz reflects anything other than the bottom end of the translation market(s)?
Absolutely. You may want to double-check my Blue Board record - and I have had contacts through my profile that turned into business. Best regards, Ralf
Thanks for the explanation. I must have been "doing Proz" wrong - even the years when I was a full paying member.
Yes, I did find a few outsourcers (check my BB record), but in terms of actually bringing business in at the rates I want, after a couple of years the cost-benefit analysis was not in favor of continuing paid Proz membership (and I am not a skinflint - I spend thousands of EUR a year on professional memberships, seminars, training, networking, etc.).
Probably boils down to personal preference and ability to use online networking effectively. The real world has just brought me higher quality contacts than the virtual world (and not just Proz, but other networking sites, too).
Plus you never get petit fours or champagne on Proz, which is one of the main reasons I like to go out to so many professional events. LOL.
Thanks again for explaining!
[Edited at 2009-07-03 14:02 GMT]
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First of all, I was not (mis)quoting you at all. I was referring in general to all of those contributors who seemed to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Secondly, "Why should it not be posted?" - I was referring here to the fact that since they started messing around with the moderator function, non-member postings, which have to be vetted, often get stuck in the ether for up to 24 to 48 hours and by the time they appear have been overtaken by events.
You said "Sorry... See more First of all, I was not (mis)quoting you at all. I was referring in general to all of those contributors who seemed to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Secondly, "Why should it not be posted?" - I was referring here to the fact that since they started messing around with the moderator function, non-member postings, which have to be vetted, often get stuck in the ether for up to 24 to 48 hours and by the time they appear have been overtaken by events.
You said "Sorry to be blunt here, but - why? On what grounds would you expect such protection, and for what purpose? Why would you want a third party to decide, on your behalf, what constitutes an "acceptable" price? If EUR 0.025 is unacceptable, what makes EUR 0.08 acceptable?".
When people pay to join a site, especially one that rejoices in the name of "ProZ", they expect to find themselves among professionals of similar standing to themselves. I'm not saying ProZ or anyone else should set minima or maxima, just that by being totally unselective about its members (as long as they make no fuss or waves) and by encouraging every Tom, Dick and Harry to take up translating in the knowledge that by asking questions via ProZ they can make a living (of sorts), it is opening the door to abuse. The customer who wants the cheapest deal knows where to go to find the translator who will agree to work for a pittance. This is building the wrong sort of bridges in my view.
And again, you slipped in a back-hander about "professionals" and "names" and have offered me a chance to explain that, as an extremely qualified (not my words) and highly experienced (i.e. old!) translator, I simply do not wish to be bothered with requests from the bottom end of the market. Like Sara, my customers come from elsewhere and pay, without quibbling, the sort of rates that some might judge outrageous. Like Sara, I belong to other associations and feel no need to join this site as a paying member. I therefore choose to keep a low profile by not vouchsafing my real name. If the people of ProZ were really "pros", as I think they probably were when the site first began, I might take another line. As it is.......
I said: "IMO sites like this that give people a place to post their cut-rate jobs are actually CONTRIBUTING to the state of the market, not just reflecting it."
You replied: "Would you mind explaining that mechanism?"
Well, to some extent I already did. The fact is that people wanting cheap deals know that sites like this are a kind of Dutch auction and they can be pretty certain to get somebody who - for whatever reason - will work at the sort of pathetic rates most of us deplore, if only because they live in places where the sums that make us cringe are actually acceptable to them. Sites like this have fostered this development. Before, outsourcers had to work a lot harder to find people prepared to work for peanuts. In addition so many good souls out there are always willing to give the rank beginners a helping hand by answering their batteries of questions. This enables them to cobble up a halfway decent translation and live to fight another day.
Of course, there are surely people who know value when they see it and are prepared to pay for good work. You say you have found clients through the site at decent rates. I believe you but I'd be curious to know how many have come your way of late and how many date from the 'good old days" of the site? I suspect that nowadays, such cases are the exception rather than the rule.... for the reasons I mentioned above.
Greetings from hot, sunny and sticky France
[Edited at 2009-07-03 14:53 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-07-03 14:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Ralf Lemster
Alemanha
Local time: 20:50
inglês para alemão
+ ...
Hi again,
Probably boils down to personal preference and ability to use online networking effectively. The real world has just brought me higher quality contacts than the virtual world (and not just Proz, but other networking sites, too).
Very much the same for me - but then, the investment is much lower on ProZ.com, compared to what you need to invest in the real world. To give an example, I will attend a seminar in London next week, hosted by a financial industry body. Together with the travel cost, this would pay for several years of corporate membership - but then, it's a much more focused opportunity.
Plus you never get petit fours or champagne on Proz, which is one of the main reasons I like to go out to so many professional events.
Precisely.
Have a nice weekend all!
Ralf
| | | | | Not just that | Jul 3, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
In that "best rates" thread, I found out that there are some people who actually like to be told the rate, rather than ask what they charge. I know that many of us accept it to a lesser or greater degree, but I had never realised there were some who actually preferred it. Indeed. ... Lotsa people out there who like to be told what to do. That said, I have nothing against hearing someone's idea of what they should pay. I'm always free to enlighten them after that.
Well, quite so. After all, someone has to be the first to punt a price out there and see what gives. We can't spend all week going "after you" and "no, you first".
The point was these folks were fine with the "it's 5 cents, take it or leave it" on the basis it saves a lot of time. Ah well, live and let live. It affects me not one jot. Just goes to show that no matter what basic premises you believe that all practioners share, there will be someone out there to prove you wrong
| | | | Per Magnus
Local time: 20:50
inglês para norueguês
| Yes, you missed something | Jul 3, 2009 |
You could have done a quick search, and found out that your question “Did I miss something” has been answered before – about a hundred times.
| | | | Erzsébet Czopyk
Hungria
Local time: 20:50
Membro (2006)
russo para húngaro
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote:
Do you really (honestly) feel that Proz reflects anything other than the bottom end of the translation market(s)?
Dear Sara,
Thank you for these words. Please, do not forget that you also represent this site as my/our colleague.
My father taught me NOT to sit down with people to the table, if I do not want to be a member of the club.
If I am a member anywhere, I like to be there, and I would like to be honoured TO BE A PART of this coomunity.
As a paying member of the ProZ.com, I think, it was one of my best investment (I mean my membership) as a freelance translator and an agency owner.
Moreover, as an agency representative, I would like to kindly ask you not to judge all agencies or the market in itself through the bad experience of one of them.
Regards, Liza Czopyk
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Erzsébet Czopyk wrote:
Please, do not forget that you also represent this site as my/our colleague.
I just want to clarify that I do not represent this site and I am not sure why anyone would think I do.
Erzsébet Czopyk wrote:
My father taught me NOT to sit down with people to the table, if I do not want to be a member of the club.
If I am a member anywhere, I like to be there, and I would like to be honoured TO BE A PART of this coomunity.
Your father sounds like a reasonable man, but I am not sure what you are getting at (language barrier?). That if I am not proud and honored to be part of Proz that I shouldn't be here? Sounds a little over the top considering that we are talking about a web portal, of which I consider myself a user (when I was a paying member I considered myself a buyer of a service). It sounds a little weird to me that I should feel proud or honored about either of those things!
Erzsébet Czopyk wrote:
Moreover, as an agency representative, I would like to kindly ask you not to judge all agencies or the market in itself through the bad experience of one of them.
Regards, Liza Czopyk
I am not judging anyone, don't believe "the market" exists as such, and have not had any particularly bad experiences either on Proz or elsewhere in the world of translation (I guess I've been lucky in business!), just sharing my own personal experience over seven years in the segments of the market I've worked in. And when Ralf explained his totally different personal experience, I accepted that as completely valid. So I don't see what the huff is all about (language barrier again?).
| | | | | Some good points, but... | Jul 3, 2009 |
polyglot45 wrote:
by encouraging every Tom, Dick and Harry to take up translating in the knowledge that by asking questions via ProZ they can make a living (of sorts), it is opening the door to abuse. The customer who wants the cheapest deal knows where to go to find the translator who will agree to work for a pittance. This is building the wrong sort of bridges in my view.
I agree that this is sad, but it's out there, and the only thing talented professional translators can do about it is be smarter and stay one step ahead of the system.
I recently did not win a contract I submitted a proposal for only to find the job posted on Proz by an agency at 1/4 my rate when I know damned well one of the client's requirements was no outsourcing...whattayagonnadoaboutit?...I conclude that that client just wasn't the "right" one (fortunately they found me not the other way around so my time investment was limited) and I need to keep honing my marketing processes to make sure I focus most of my efforts on the "right" clients. I let myself wallow in utter disgust for about a New York minute before pulling myself together and getting back to work on more productive things. Yes, Proz makes it easier for that agency to exist, but it's out there and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it.
polyglot45 wrote:
Of course, there are surely people who know value when they see it and are prepared to pay for good work. You say you have found clients through the site at decent rates. I believe you but I'd be curious to know how many have come your way of late and how many date from the 'good old days" of the site? I suspect that nowadays, such cases are the exception rather than the rule.... for the reasons I mentioned above.
Personally, I believe it is possible - like with any network. Ralf seems very involved and has taken on a leadership role (in the networking sense of the term) so he probably DOES get the kind of quality contacts he is looking for. Just like I get the kind of quality contacts I want out of the networks where I give the most. Somehow Proz just doesn't motivate me to give (nor does LinkedIn or Viadeo for that matter), to attend the powwows and conferences, etc.
The only bone I have to pick with translators is that I would like to see more of them invest in their local translator associations (where there is more of a focus on advancing the profession for ALL of us) AND invest in a commercial portal like Proz (rather than investing a web portal *instead of* a professional association).
[Edited at 2009-07-03 18:24 GMT]
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I fully subscribe to your last paragraph (which doesn't mean I don't agree with the rest, just that the last paragraph is spot on).
ProZ is indeed a commercial portal and we should never forget that. It means that the owner's (owners') interests (one person or several ?) and those of the translator are not necessarily always identical. Feeling proud to be a member of the community is fine but you are, most of you, paying for the privilege.. . Now I have no quibble with anyone's desi... See more I fully subscribe to your last paragraph (which doesn't mean I don't agree with the rest, just that the last paragraph is spot on).
ProZ is indeed a commercial portal and we should never forget that. It means that the owner's (owners') interests (one person or several ?) and those of the translator are not necessarily always identical. Feeling proud to be a member of the community is fine but you are, most of you, paying for the privilege.. . Now I have no quibble with anyone's desire to run a commercial venture and make money. I would have a problem if they were masquerading under false colours. And while I maintain excellent relations with my local tradespeople and shopkeepers, I would not consider them my friends, not unless we have social links in addition to trading relations.
We should never confuse associations defending the interests of translators and with no axe to grind with commercial ventures, however good and helpful, where there are - also - vested interests at stake. When push comes to shove, in the event of a conflict between the commercial and the philanthropic, I have no doubt whatsoever which way the cards will fall.
Have a good weekend all of you ▲ Collapse
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