Chinese汉语 term
“入世” & “出世”
Hi, everyone, I am translating a Chinese article into English. the author used Buddhist terms like “入世” and “出世”. It seems that there is no satisfactory translation online. So I seek help here. Please give me your hand.
by the way, if I use the word "engaged" to translate "入世", is it OK? Thanks!
Dec 27, 2013 15:18: tanglsus changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
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Proposed translations
mainstream conforming/non-conforming
不是这个意思。这里的入世与出世其实是指两种信仰实践方式。入世是说要通过参与社会实践活动来实践信仰;让世人实实在在地感受到基督教信仰对他们的益处。出世是主张信徒尽量与世界保持距离,专注于读经祷告,仿佛修道院那样的。 |
"Worldly Asceticism" & "Otherworldly Asceticism"
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From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism
Early 20th-century German sociologist Max Weber made a distinction between innerweltliche and ausserweltliche asceticism, which means (roughly) "inside the world" and "outside the world", respectively. Talcott Parsons translated these as "worldly" and "otherworldly"—however, some translators use "inner-worldly", and this is more in line with inner world explorations of mysticism, a common purpose of asceticism. "Inner or Other- worldly" asceticism is practised by people who withdraw from the world to live an ascetic life (this includes monks who live communally in monasteries, as well as hermits who live alone). "Worldly" asceticism refers to people who live ascetic lives but do not withdraw from the world.
谢谢!我理解韦伯是在谈宗教精神。但问题是,在我们的信仰里,入世和出世的成分都有,只看各人侧重哪一部分了。而且我理解作者是在比较对社会的两种不同态度。一种态度是关心社会,另一种态度是敌视社会。 |
"Collective Salvation" & "Individual Salvation"
社关传统 --> Collective Salvation
属灵传统 --> Individual Salvation
engagement vs withdrawal, embrace vs rejection, worldliness vs other-worldliness
Here are some pairs that I think can be used to capture the distinction:
engagement vs withdrawal,
embrace vs rejection (of the world),
worldliness vs other-worldliness,
lay-oriented vs monastic
devotional vs ascetic
or even, in some contexts: Mahayana vs Theravada
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Note added at 2 days16 hrs (2013-12-28 08:33:19 GMT)
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This link gives some good options, too:
http://www.alanpeto.com/buddhism/understanding-mahayana-ther...
"So in a nutshell Theravada promotes personal (individual) liberation from suffering, and Mahayana promotes liberating all sentient beings from suffering."
focused on personal liberation vs focused on universal liberation
Thanks for your data, they are very interesting. Yeah, they give me some insights about the article. I know little about Buddhism, so at first I cannot deal with the words. |
Social ministry (入世)/ spiritual ministry(出世)
入世: social ministry-based churches (mainline Protestant)
出世: spiritual ministry-based churches (evangelicals) that place emphasis on the individual gospel
這種「入世」的社關傳統,又很容早被偏向「出世」的屬靈傳統所質疑,認為「社會福音」的「偏差」會將「個人福音」的價值扭曲及犧牲。
The social ministry approach is often questioned by proponents of the spiritual ministry approach, as the latter views the social gospel as a distortion of the individual gospel.
Sources:
Http://bit.ly/19OstPl : "socially engaged Buddhism is often translated into Chinese as rushi, “in the world,” while a practice focused on study, meditation, seclusion, and so on, is termed chushi, detached, literally “exiting [the] world"
On spiritual ministry and social ministry in a Christian context:
http://slidesha.re/K8A5CQ
http://bit.ly/1eH4tlo
http://bit.ly/1fKUkAo : Where again I see this as a microcosm of the problems of the "mainline" Protestant churches here in the US is the seemingly over-emphasis of a social gospel vs what many Evangelicals see as the role of a church, which is preaching the Gospel to save sinners.”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline_Protestant
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
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http://www.sureaboutheaven.com/assurance-test/test-of-your-u... : "The 'world' in question is the world system. A sinful man craves {worldly} things, that is, fame, fortune, "just" this new [insert latest gadget here], holidaying, an easy life, full health, security and the like."
In a Christian context (among lay persons), the word "worldly" is commonly used to describe the things of the world (money, fame, material things) and "unworldly" is used to describe things of the Spirit. However, in this context, 入世 is used to describe a social ministry approach and 出世 is used to describe a spiritual ministry approach. Perhaps putting the terms "worldly" and "unworldly" in inverted commas would help the reader understand that that the terms aren't being used as they normally are. However, considering the semantics these words carry in the Christian (English) world, I would just omit them altogether, as it doesn't really change the meaning of the text. Just my two cents.
入世/出世 seems to be a Buddhist concept that can't be neatly translated into a single English word. However, if you really need to put the words in, I suggest adapting the text in the link above: "rushi (in the world); chushi (detached, literally “exiting [the] world)"
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Note added at 2 days16 hrs (2013-12-28 09:14:01 GMT)
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Correction: 入世/出世 seems to be a Buddhist concept that can't be neatly translated into single English word(s) for a reader who is unfamiliar with Buddhist concepts. Hence, more explanation is needed in order to ensure that the reader understands the terms.
非常感谢!看了后深受启发。我是这样翻译的,请帮忙斟酌一下:This tradition of ‘engaged’ social care was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favored to seclude themselves from the world, asserting that the ‘deviation’ derived from the ‘social gospel’ will distort and sacrifice the essence of the ‘individual gospel’. |
’Worldly‘ & ’Un-worldly‘
佛教的 ’出世‘ 观的解释如下 [来自圣严法师]:(请参见最下面的链接)
’为了厌离这个苦多乐少的世间,所以要求解脱生死。可见,佛教是厌世的,也是出世的。‘
这里表达了 beyond the world 的意思。 基于这个解释,我觉得挺配合原文所针对的一些基督教的所谓 ’「出世」的屬靈傳統‘ - the so-called ’beyond-the-world‘ tradition of spirituality as propagated by Evangelical Christians.
I found a book title that translates 入世 and 出世 as follow (参见下面链接):
In the World or beyond the World: Liang Shuming s Ultimate Concern;
在入世与出世之间 — 论梁漱溟的终极关怀
返回原文:這種「入世」的社關傳統,又很容早被偏向「出世」的屬靈傳統所質疑
其实我觉得用 In the world / beyond the world 是挺理想的。但是既然你想只用一个形容词来翻译,那我就建议用:
’worldly‘ and ’unworldly‘
这两个英文字词《牛津字典》都有收录,你可查证是否合用。我认识一些 Evangelical 的教会领袖他们日常证道的时候都喜欢这样表达。
供参考。
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再翻阅一次牛津英汉双解字典,它对 ‘worldly' 的注释是 ’connected with the world in which we live rather than with spiritual things。中文则是 ‘尘世的’, ‘世俗的’, ‘世事的’。 The opposite is 'spiritual'。'connected with the world' is key here - 即是与世界有联系的。 我选用 worldly 因为一个基督徒如何和世界有关连,可以存在不同的程度。原文的 ‘社 关’ - 社会关怀 - 关注社会问题如贫穷人的遭遇、被欺压的边缘人士,正正是其中一种联系方式,也是他们的基督信仰的表达。
我明白作者的原意,指出主流教派的所谓 ‘社会福音’ 侧重关心社会,而忽略了个人灵性的操练。你想在翻译里将基督徒在社会问题事务上的参与用 engage 表达。个人觉得也可以的。请参见英国圣公会的链接,有 the Church engages in Home Affairs Policy 的字眼。
http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views.aspx
‘社关’ Social concern 本身就是一种 engagement in society。70-80年代始主流教派曾经提倡基督徒 'to serve in church 'and' society', 就是不光要服侍教会内的基督徒,更要将基督的爱心推出教堂围墙之外。除了作教会内的好信徒,也要关怀邻舍,学习好撒玛利亚人的榜样Good Samaritan,服务人群。
对了, 社关=social concern,是普遍使用字眼,尤其指教会的社会关怀。不单是 social care 社会照顾, 请参见连接:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3510030?uid=3738032&ui...
这个是浸信会的网页:http://www.guildfordbaptist.org/about/social-concern/
基于字典解释,我建议保留 ’world' 因为原文有 ‘世界’ 的意思,我们做翻译的好像尽可能保持原作字词,却同时可加上 engagement 如下:
This tradition of 'engagement in the world' through social concern was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favored to seclude themselves from the world.
用 ‘world-engaged' 意思一样,却更贴切!
供参考。
谢谢热心解答并帮忙找出这些参考。这两个词不是很好用。从字面意思上看,它们是指事物的存在状态,或者是在世界之内,或者是在世界之外。而作者使用的“入世”和“出世”是说基督徒对世界的态度,或者投身于世界,或者尽量与世界保持距离。 |
Discussion
想不到不经不觉,我们用了 30 个帖子来完成讨论!
个人觉得不是我们的信仰 ’麻烦‘。我们的信仰完全不麻烦,只是 worldly 的地上教派关系沟通麻烦,他们不能容纳行出基督信仰的不同方式。耶稣自己在地上三十多年的服务社群,独力抵挡魔鬼诱惑、犹太领袖的逼迫及自己信徒的猜疑、出卖,他不是也会自己退到山上去独处’灵修‘吗?他并没有停止一切社关在山上灵修一辈子。也没有在犹大地只服务社群不去灵修。所以,我觉得将两种信仰表达方式以二分法来作分野,好像是邀功式的一种唯我独尊的判断。听说以个人修炼唯独的福音派教会运动 Lausanne Movement 也受到主流教派的走进人群的服侍方式所刺激,对社关方面的态度有一点容忍。其实有一个例子,如果不是卫理公会的马丁路得。金牧师 Martin Luther King Jr. 带头替饱受公众歧视的美国黑人伸张正义,20世纪黑人在美国恐怕还是二等、三等公民不能坐公交车,更遑论2012年有第一个民选黑人总统出现。
话说回头,我之前在第一个帖子已经提出了 'engagement in the world'的建议,后来你找到网上证道稿已经有人用更简化的 ‘world-engaged'。所以, 我觉得 ’world-enaged' 是可以的。你看看最后的修辞和整个段落的配合如何,顺不顺口就好。
谢谢你的问题和耐心等候我们的讨论。在圣诞节期间有一个相关的翻译题目来 ‘应节’,亦一大乐事也!
@Phil Thanks for the dictionary link on Buddhist terms. This will come in handy someday.
@Seaguest All the best in translating the text! :)
My suggested version with the quotation marks on "worldly" if read together, means only about "social concern" of the churches as groups, not about preference or inclination of an individual on things such as fame and money. Moreover, the source text points to slight negativeness about 'social concern' as preferred by the mainline churches as a form of Christian testimony of Christ's love for all people. The author says that non-mainline churches thought social concern could 'sacrifice' 牺牲 and 'distort' 扭曲 the value of individual spiritual discipline. I don't think readers would think the mainline churches love money and fame in this context if they read the whole sentence, and the sentence before. Rather, they might think the mainline churches are too political. Politics, like money and fame, is an earthly thing anyway. Those who engage in political issues are not spiritual enough in their opinion. As such, I think my suggested translation conveys the same slight negativeness as in the source text while the meaning is accurate according to dictionary that worldly means ‘尘世的’、 ‘世俗的’、‘世事的’。
However, I'm still a bit uncomfortable with using the word "worldly" as it has negative connotations in the Christian community. A "worldly" Christian is a believer who is preoccupied with fame and money instead of spiritual things, which isn't the case in this text. I know the term isn't being used that way here, and maybe it's just a matter of personal preference as I'm slightly uncomfortable with the semantics this term carries. All in all, I generally agree with your views.
以我看来,译文不能避免地须包含‘世界’的字眼或意思,因为原文指出主流教派積極參與社會和非主流教会只强调个人属灵修炼,两者的对立,对于基督教神学教育在中国的发展,以及在下一段所介绍的香港中文大学崇基神学系Chung Chi Theological Department 的创立,有一定影响。(意指非主流教会不会派学生去崇基神学系修读。崇基神学院主要财政支持来自主流教派,请参见原文。)‘崇基學院的成立,背後得到許多歐美的基督教團體、差會及本地教會團體的支持。...崇基學院神學及宗教教育系開創時,崇基學院院長凌道揚與該系委員會主席安迪生致函各教會,呼籲選派學生來院就讀。 當時,中華基督教會對崇基神學的支持甚大,於1959年通過派五人入讀,又在財政上支持崇基,並代向各外國教會申請資助。’
再看一次原文: '由於參與「合一」的宗派,大多屬 積極參與社會 的「主流宗派」(mainline churches),這種「入世」的社關傳統,又很容早被偏向「出世」的屬靈傳統所質疑,認為「社會福音」的「偏差」會將「個人福音」的價值扭曲及犧牲。'
全句的开始已有提到 ‘積極參與社會的「主流宗派」the mainline denominations that engage actively in society, 在跟着的一句就不需 overtranslate 入世,个人认为只用 ‘worldly’ 即可。况且‘社关传统’ the tradition of social concern已经表达了engage in society的含义。
试译: Since most denominations that supported 'ecumenical church unity' were the mainline churches that engage actively in society, their 'worldly' tradition of social concern was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favoured to seclude themselves from the world.
供参考。
<br>
On another note, it seems that this text provided by Seaguest initially appeared in a (Christian) Divinity School Newsletter (<a>http://bit.ly/1logppL</a>, <a>http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/theology/en/introduction.htm</a>... As I have a feeling that the translated English text will cater to (Christian) English readers who are unfamiliar with Buddhist concepts, I think that using single word terms might not help to inform the reader. (Better to err on the side of caution and provide more explanation, or omit the terms altogether). As such, I suggest using examples such as “seclud(ing) themselves from the world” (which Seaguest has written) or *inward looking” to explain the concept of 出世, and “socially engaged or *outward looking” to explain the concept of 入世. These explanations could be put as a footnote, in brackets, or incorporated into the text.
<br>
*the terms "inward looking" and "outward looking" are commonly used to describe the stands of different churches.
http://brandonpugh.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/a-world-engaged-...
http://mahajana.net/texts/kopia_lokalna/soothill-hodous.html
A Dictionary of Chinese Buddhist Terms
by William Edward Soothill and Lewis Hodous
我明白作者的原意,指出主流教派的所谓 ‘社会福音’ 侧重关心社会,而忽略了个人灵性的操练。你想在翻译里将基督徒在社会问题事务上的参与用 engage 表达。个人觉得也可以的。请参见英国圣公会的链接,有 the Church engages in Home Affairs Policy 的字眼。
http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views.aspx
‘社关’ Social concern 本身就是一种 engagement in society。70-80年代始主流教派曾经提倡基督徒 'to serve in church 'and' society', 就是不光要服侍教会内的基督徒,更要将基督的爱心推出教堂围墙之外。除了作教会内的好信徒,也要关怀邻舍,学习好撒玛利亚人的榜样Good Samaritan,服务人群。
对了, 社关=social concern,是普遍使用字眼,尤其指教会的社会关怀。不单是 social care 社会照顾, 请参见连接:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3510030?uid=3738032&ui...
这个是浸信会的网页:http://www.guildfordbaptist.org/about/social-concern/
基于字典解释,我建议保留 ’world' 因为原文有 ‘世界’ 的意思,我们做翻译的好像尽可能保持原作字词,却同时可加上 engagement 如下:
This tradition of 'engagement in the world' through social concern was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favored to seclude themselves from the world.
供参考。
<TABLE><TR><TD align=center>Concept</TD><TD align=center>Method</TD><TD align=center>Goal</TD><TD align=center>Teaching</TD><TD align=center>Organization Type</TD></TR><TR><TD>Collective Salvation <BR><BR></TD><TD>Save everyone in the world (partly through social justice). <BR><BR></TD><TD>Spiritual Salvation (for all) <BR><BR></TD><TD>Social Gospel <BR><BR><BR></TD><TD>Social Ministry <BR><BR><BR></TD></TR><TR><TD>Individual Salvation </TD><TD>Save oneself (and sometimes friends and family). </TD><TD>Spiritual Salvation </TD><TD>Individual Gospel </TD><TD>Spiritual Ministry </TD></TR></TABLE>
This tradition of ‘engaged’ social care was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favored to seclude themselves from the world, asserting that the ‘deviation’ derived from the ‘social gospel’ will distort and sacrifice the essence of the ‘individual gospel’.
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